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View Full Version : JPM is in SERIOUS TROUBLE! Must Read!!


Vistula
03-09-2011, 10:53 AM
Take a couple of minutes and read this if you wish.

And we are still holding strong @ 36.

http://tfmetalsreport.blogspot.com/

ingots
03-09-2011, 11:07 AM
have hard time believing anyone that will not use there real name....

i also saw a video he did, i mean ok going by turd for a first name is suspicious,

but when you do a you tube video and you wear dark glasses and a hat means only one thing......

your hiding your identity period.........:cool:

About AG
03-09-2011, 11:10 AM
Take a couple of minutes and read this. It's an absolute "Need to Read"

And we are still holding strong @ 36.

http://tfmetalsreport.blogspot.com/

Yes, they are in serious trouble because "Rumors has it JPM's losses are exponentional once silver breaks $36 or so."

But that's just a rumor.

So yes, there is a rumor that JPM is in SERIOUS TROUBLE.

laredo7mm
03-09-2011, 11:11 AM
Take a couple of minutes and read this. It's an absolute "Need to Read"

And we are still holding strong @ 36.

http://tfmetalsreport.blogspot.com/

For being a "must read" and a "need to read" I guess the forum police are going to issue a warrant for my arrest. 9 time out of 10 times anything listed as a "must read" is not worth the mouse button click...imo.

145bluesman
03-09-2011, 11:16 AM
All of this silver market drama is distracting me away from the television PROGRAMMING. (sarcasm)

Akfisherman
03-09-2011, 11:17 AM
Go ahead and post YOUR real identity then! See how it feels showing the whole world what you look like, and implying that you may have a silver hoard ripe for the picking...

Vistula
03-09-2011, 11:22 AM
I apologize for interrupting your day and of course your precious time. I am guilty as charged for just trying to pass along some info.

Between the 3 of you, I'm sure one can be the cross, the other the nails, and the last the hammer.

mrbadger
03-09-2011, 11:23 AM
Yawn. So a blogger name Turd quotes a user message from last November to the effect that JPM will face increasing losses if silver hits $40, and will be bankrupt if silver hits $60.

Even the blogger in question notes that "Look, I still have absolutely no idea if this whole "WB Group" thing is real or imagined. There are, though, a lot of coincidences and in a rigged and manipulated "market" such as silver, the old phrase about "there are no coincidences" certainly rings true."

I have a feeling that if and when silver hits $40, a lot of shorts will be regretting their calls. And if it hits $60, even more so.

Translate this to stocks and nobody would bat an eyelash. But we're dealing with silver, and those with it stashed in their basement must feel that everyone shorting silver is an evil mastermind bent on supporting the vices of fiat currency and Keynsian economics. As heartbreaking as it may be, commodities do not always move in lock step, there are people betting for/against every stock, bond and commodity on the market and some markets are more volatile than others. Not everything is a vast conspiracy [<----unless it really _is_, MUAHAHAHAHAH].

kutblok
03-09-2011, 11:25 AM
It's been interesting to watch the 1 1/2 hour $0.60 pounding. The Kitco chart is also interesting. It looks like triplets.

laredo7mm
03-09-2011, 11:36 AM
I only trust anonymous youtube videos not blogspots when it comes to silver conspiracy theories

lol...I only trust the talking bears...ahahaha

TheorisT
03-09-2011, 11:43 AM
JPM is a "too big to fail." They'll either get bailed out or the banksters will do what they always do, win by some other sketchy means. This does wanna make me move the hell out of my CHASE account tho.

MyBids
03-09-2011, 11:51 AM
I apologize for interrupting your day and of course your precious time. I am guilty as charged for just trying to pass along some info.

Between the 3 of you, I'm sure one can be the cross, the other the nails, and the last the hammer.


You have absolutely no reason to apologize to anyone here.


Thanks for the info link.

ingots
03-09-2011, 11:52 AM
Go ahead and post YOUR real identity then! See how it feels showing the whole world what you look like, and implying that you may have a silver hoard ripe for the picking...

ummm people do it all the time....... do a youtube search....

ingots
03-09-2011, 11:56 AM
i dont buy the wentor bynton group thing i just dont buy it....

Silver and Gold
03-09-2011, 12:01 PM
Even if they force the price down it will kill them. More physical will leave the market on the drops. I think physical metals are going to get harder and harder to get. I want to see friday what the Arab day of rage will bring.:eek:

Krank
03-09-2011, 12:03 PM
Something smells odd about this Turd's story . . . but if they fail, they fail.

About AG
03-09-2011, 12:06 PM
I apologize for interrupting your day and of course your precious time. I am guilty as charged for just trying to pass along some info.

Between the 3 of you, I'm sure one can be the cross, the other the nails, and the last the hammer.

It wasn't a simple matter of trying to pass along some info.

If you had posted "JPM could be in serial trouble", I would have read the other posts first, then checked to see what you had to say. But where JPM is the key player in the silver market, and you said "is in" (even the blogger doesn't say they are in trouble yet), which is misinformation, and then SHOUTED, and then added the "Must Read!", I felt it worthy of pre-empting my reading of other posts. From the title, there was HUGE NEWS. But there wasn't.

So rather than lead others into the same trap, I pointed out that this is just a rumor.

If you want to compare yourself to Jesus Christ, that is your choice.

Mellow Yellow
03-09-2011, 12:12 PM
Last Friday Bob Chapman made a brief statement claiming personal knowledge of WB group. I remain skeptical and WB doesn't really play into my decisions, although the shortages at this price seems credible. Even this is disputed. One way of approaching this WB rumor is to ask Qui Bono? Any thoughts? :confused:

Joe6pack
03-09-2011, 12:22 PM
Take a couple of minutes and read this if you wish.

And we are still holding strong @ 36.

http://tfmetalsreport.blogspot.com/

JPM has "unlimited source of funding" via the FED...as well as Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, B of A, Wells Fargo.

Thus, I doubt JPM will ever go broke unless the FED & ECB is taken out, which is highly unlikely.

Moonstruck
03-09-2011, 12:29 PM
Talking Bears > WB shadow banksters.:eek:

So when the WB says "sell now" !!

Who here will fall for it?:rolleyes:

christogl
03-09-2011, 12:32 PM
Even if they force the price down it will kill them. More physical will leave the market on the drops. I think physical metals are going to get harder and harder to get. I want to see friday what the Arab day of rage will bring.:eek:

JPM can always settle in ETF certs...something the WB advocates conveniently forget.

Vistula
03-09-2011, 12:33 PM
It wasn't a simple matter of trying to pass along some info.

If you had posted "JPM could be in serial trouble", I would have read the other posts first, then checked to see what you had to say. But where JPM is the key player in the silver market, and you said "is in" (even the blogger doesn't say they are in trouble yet), which is misinformation, and then SHOUTED, and then added the "Must Read!", I felt it worthy of pre-empting my reading of other posts. From the title, there was HUGE NEWS. But there wasn't.

So rather than lead others into the same trap, I pointed out that this is just a rumor.

If you want to compare yourself to Jesus Christ, that is your choice.

I understand your time so valuable, imagine the horror of have to look at a posting concerning the obvious culprit in the silver short game.
I would never compare myself to my savior.

Mostly I believe your response just makes your an arrogant a*s. In my humble opinion of course.

Medina
03-09-2011, 12:38 PM
JPM is not in any problem, they will continue shorting, their derivates monster cannot be broken, it will only be resulting in Huge inflation, QE will directly flow to JPM to support any short position that is getting squeesed. Shorting will continue, as will inflation.

GetZeeGold
03-09-2011, 12:39 PM
Silver has scratched back to 36.

Yup.....looks like Blythe is going home in a body bag...do da....do da. :D

Vistula
03-09-2011, 12:40 PM
You have absolutely no reason to apologize to anyone here.


Thanks for the info link.

Thank you for your kindness and civility.

I am amazed at the tendency of some to offer up such levels of castigation for merely trying to pass along information.

theplantguy
03-09-2011, 12:43 PM
Thank you for your kindness and civility.

I am amazed at the tendency of some to offer up such levels of castigation for merely trying to pass along information.

It's not information, it's someone's opinion.

laredo7mm
03-09-2011, 12:43 PM
...I am amazed at the tendency of some to offer up such levels of castigation for merely trying to pass along information.

I am amazed at how fragile some people are.

Skydude
03-09-2011, 12:45 PM
I am amazed at the tendency of some to offer up such levels of castigation for merely trying to pass along information.

I appreciate your linking this info to us..so,Thanks again.! :)

GetZeeGold
03-09-2011, 12:49 PM
It's not information, it's someone's opinion.

If was information of someone's opinion. :D


All together now......do da.......do da. :cool:

Conax
03-09-2011, 12:50 PM
Personally, I like to read. I like to hear about any information out there, that might help me to understand the nuances of the markets. While some info is very solid (like charts of price movement) other data comes in in less reliable (but still interesting) formats. "Rumor has it" or "my dealer doesn't have anything", opinions of long-term market players, and so on.

While this information must be taken with a grain of salt, it enlivens the daily posts available for our perusal, and does no real harm. I would be pretty bored with a forum that has nothing to read but charts.
Thanks for the post, OP. If anyone doesn't want to consider it, they can always scroll on down. ;)

Stewie
03-09-2011, 12:52 PM
have hard time believing anyone that will not use there real name....

i also saw a video he did, i mean ok going by turd for a first name is suspicious,

but when you do a you tube video and you wear dark glasses and a hat means only one thing......

your hiding your identity period.........:cool:


So what is your name?
Where you live?


The world is waiting.

About AG
03-09-2011, 01:02 PM
Personally, I like to read. I like to hear about any information out there, that might help me to understand the nuances of the markets. While some info is very solid (like charts of price movement) other data comes in in less reliable (but still interesting) formats. "Rumor has it" or "my dealer doesn't have anything", opinions of long-term market players, and so on.

I certainly agree with this. Rumors are important, as a lot of real information starts off in rumor form.

What annoys me is when people hype the rumors (e.g. shouting that the key player in silver is in SERIOUS TROUBLE and that it is a MUST READ). But what I annoys me the most is when people post rumors as facts.

Although it would be great if everyone new to silver had the time to fully research everything themselves, they do not. If they start to see a lot of misinformation posted as fact (e.g. that "JPM is in SERIOUS TROUBLE!"), and do not see people posting to the contrary, they may well assume it is true.

That's why I took offense at the OP -- not because he posted a link to the article, but because he was hyping it as truth, when in fact it was just a rumor.

JohnPA
03-09-2011, 01:05 PM
Indeed. Accurate thread titles elevate the quality of any forum.

GetZeeGold
03-09-2011, 01:07 PM
I'm glad I didn't listen to those Enron and Lehman rumors.

Ken and Dick told me to keep on buying......SO I DID!:D





OK....now just right side of the forum..........do da....do da.

Conax
03-09-2011, 01:08 PM
OK.
I can see that to an extent. The use of melodrama and hyperbole can be misleading, and should be kept to a minimum.
But I do support the use of a forum as a sounding board, a place to vent.
It is fun to read and consider.

999FINE
03-09-2011, 01:17 PM
When I first started to realize that JPM has shorted far more silver than they could ever hope to cover, my first question was "why would they do that?" Not only that, why do it with a commodity where you must report your positions through the COT and Bank Participation Report? After all,the whole world can see what you are doing. [my added comment: Ted Butler included!]

Now I know the answer. According to Max Keiser and now a couple of other independent sources, it seems the reasons why first Bear Stearns and now JPM are so desperate to manipulate the price of silver down is due to the fact that BS and JPM shorted billions (yes billions not millions) in ounces of silver through their derivatives.


That didnt answer anything

He asked why would they shorted silver, then said the answer is because they had shorted billions of oz of silver

What???

This post is retarded....
No disrespect to the OP
But this is crap

That does explain WHY they shorted, it simply restates that they shorted and now want to try to keep it down.

But why would a massive company with that much money SHORT a commodity they know performs well in good and bad times?????

Agathon
03-09-2011, 01:17 PM
I certainly agree with this. Rumors are important, as a lot of real information starts off in rumor form.

What annoys me is when people hype the rumors (e.g. shouting that the key player in silver is in SERIOUS TROUBLE and that it is a MUST READ). But what I annoys me the most is when people post rumors as facts.

Although it would be great if everyone new to silver had the time to fully research everything themselves, they do not. If they start to see a lot of misinformation posted as fact (e.g. that "JPM is in SERIOUS TROUBLE!"), and do not see people posting to the contrary, they may well assume it is true.

That's why I took offense at the OP -- not because he posted a link to the article, but because he was hyping it as truth, when in fact it was just a rumor.

You sure have a lot that annoys you. Why don't you take a timeout?

If I see a title that I think is hype or hogwash I just ignore it. I don't flame the poster. Each reader must decide what to read and the worth of what they read.

BTW, Turd Ferguson (name taken from an SNL skit) is one of the best analysts of the PM market that I've ever read. He was pointing out the coincidence of the $36 range being a huge battleground currently in light of the info in the Wynter Benton post from November. I found it interesting. And no matter how you cut it, JPM IS in serious trouble--Ponzi schemes always fail. It's just a question of timing.

blitzdude
03-09-2011, 01:19 PM
Take a couple of minutes and read this if you wish.

And we are still holding strong @ 36.

http://tfmetalsreport.blogspot.com/

Well that was a waste of a mouse click......

SalGallo
03-09-2011, 01:24 PM
BTW, Turd Ferguson (name taken from an SNL skit) is one of the best analysts of the PM market that I've ever read. He was pointing out the coincidence of the $36 range being a huge battleground currently in light of the info in the Wynter Benton post from November.


+1 and in that sense Turd Ferguson is a must read - everyday

GetZeeGold
03-09-2011, 01:26 PM
+1 and in that sense Turd Ferguson is a must read - everyday


He stinks.....he's great.......do da........do da. :D

jbsilver
03-09-2011, 01:30 PM
It's not information, it's someone's opinion.

Someone's opinion is also information. But of course you are entitled to your opinion about what is information.

999FINE
03-09-2011, 01:46 PM
But what I have recently discovered is that through its derivative positions, JPM will lose about 5 times that amount ounce the price of silver is above $36.

The POS already closed above $36
so did they lose 6x
Or do they have a certain date when their short expires?

OrangeCrush
03-09-2011, 01:47 PM
I am amazed at the tendency of some to offer up such levels of castigation for merely trying to pass along information.

Don't even give it a 2nd thought and certainly dont let it deter you from posting in the future. I for one enjoy reading people's opinions in regards to these matters. I could honestly care less if they aren't well known or dont post their resumes. I also understand why some dont like to give out their real names. I understand going in that its just someone's opinion and again I enjoy reading such opinions.

Thanks for the post!

Spinwheel
03-09-2011, 01:47 PM
They are in trouble? What shall I do with my 10,000 JPM shares?

JohnRav
03-09-2011, 01:49 PM
Silver is a tiny fraction of JPM's Billions and Billions. Just because they are the biggest player in a tiny market, does not mean they stand to be ruined.

2 question's;

What is JPM's short exposure.

What was JPM's last quarter Profits (not revenue.)

Lets us know how those facts stack up to your rumors. (a tip, they might be a big concern to the Silver market, but the Silver market is of no real concern to them.) It helps them to suppress silver and they can do so for years by trading shorts. Even if silver went to xxx.xx they could still play this game and show a profit. (not that it makes it right.)


Add to that, why? Well, what is #1 to JPM. I'd just guess (this is a rumor!) its the DOLLAR, the FRN, you know the green stuff.) You think they want a strong dollar. If they 'play' with silver, wouldn't that help keep a stronger dollar.

Again, just saying the silver market is one (tiny) piece to the puzzle and JPM plays the whole field. (right or wrong, does not matter here either.)

OrangeCrush
03-09-2011, 01:54 PM
they might be a big concern to the Silver market, but the Silver market is of no real concern to them.

You cant honestly believe this to be true.

GetZeeGold
03-09-2011, 02:01 PM
They are in trouble? What shall I do with my 10,000 JPM shares?

Stack them next to the 10,000 lawsuits.:D

theplantguy
03-09-2011, 02:05 PM
JPMorgan Chase says profits for the recent quarter were almost 50 percent higher than last year. The bank reported fourth-quarter profits at $4.8 billion Friday, saying its losses from bad loans declined, which boosted earnings.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/14/132929926/jpmorgan-chase-4-8-billion-4th-quarter-profit

Does it look like they are in trouble?

GetZeeGold
03-09-2011, 02:07 PM
JPMorgan Chase says profits for the recent quarter were almost 50 percent higher than last year. The bank reported fourth-quarter profits at $4.8 billion Friday, saying its losses from bad loans declined, which boosted earnings.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/14/132929926/jpmorgan-chase-4-8-billion-4th-quarter-profit

Does it look like they are in trouble?

Yes....it does.......do da.....do da.:D


NEW YORK (TheStreet (http://www.thestreet.com/)) -- JPMorgan Chase (JPM (http://www.thestreet.com/quote/JPM.html)_ (http://www.thestreet.com/quote/JPM.html)) is a defendant in more than 10,000 legal proceedings and may be $4.5 billion short of reserves needed to cover those costs in a worst-case scenario, the firm said in a regulatory filing on Monday.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/11026295/1/jpmorgan-fighting-10000-lawsuits.html

Medina
03-09-2011, 02:09 PM
JPMorgan Chase says profits for the recent quarter were almost 50 percent higher than last year. The bank reported fourth-quarter profits at $4.8 billion Friday, saying its losses from bad loans declined, which boosted earnings.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/14/132929926/jpmorgan-chase-4-8-billion-4th-quarter-profit

Does it look like they are in trouble?

No it doesnt, And they arent.

GetZeeGold
03-09-2011, 02:10 PM
No it doesnt, And they arent.

Your Jedi mind tricks will not work here.:D

Asaro
03-09-2011, 02:29 PM
It's not information, it's someone's opinion.

You make it sound like a crime.

Whether or not you agree/disagree or like/dislike the opinion in question, this is an internet forum that exists to discuss information and share opinions. It should not be necessary for a poster to make a disclaimer prior to writing their contribution to the forum.

Get over yourself.

Medina
03-09-2011, 02:32 PM
Your Jedi mind tricks will not work here.:D

Well they really arent, the Zombie Banks are only in problem as soon as the lender of last resort, The Fed, stops borrowing their debt and stops QE. Thats why there is so much inflation, because the fed uses QE to buy up zombie derivates in order to keep JPM, Manhatten Chase, Goldman Sachs and more of these Zombiebanks alive. Once Hyperinflation starts, then they will be destroyed.

About AG
03-09-2011, 02:35 PM
It should not be necessary for a poster to make a disclaimer prior to writing their contribution to the forum.

So you think the forum would work well if everyone posted lies?

It's one thing to say "JPM could be in serious trouble", or "I am sure JPM is in serious trouble" without a disclaimer. Both are true, and based on opinions. It's another to make up a statement "JPM is in SERIOUS TROUBLE", that is untrue but posted as a fact.

It's amazing how many people do not understand the difference between something stated as fact and something stated as an opinion.

Moonstruck
03-09-2011, 02:47 PM
Well they really arent, the Zombie Banks are only in problem as soon as the lender of last resort, The Fed, stops borrowing their debt and stops QE. Thats why there is so much inflation, because the fed uses QE to buy up zombie derivates in order to keep JPM, Manhatten Chase, Goldman Sachs and more of these Zombiebanks alive. Once Hyperinflation starts, then they will be destroyed.

+1

There is allso an outside chance for Hyperdeflation.:eek:

Not that that will be any less painfull... :o

silvertip
03-09-2011, 02:48 PM
thanks for the link

Vistula
03-09-2011, 03:16 PM
Some on this forum believe themselves to be the ultimate Arbiters of content.

I actually was having a bit of fun interacting on the forum, but this is such tripe.

Maybe it would be better to have the forum bullies control the content, eliminate free speech, and demonstrate their superior intellect to the rest of us.

After all, falsehoods do not exist on wallstreet, the government or the world, so it must be easy to determine the truth here.
We should all submit to the higher authority. I think I'll sit this one out.

Jolyman
03-09-2011, 03:49 PM
Some on this forum believe themselves to be the ultimate Arbiters of content.

I actually was having a bit of fun interacting on the forum, but this is such tripe.

Maybe it would be better to have the forum bullies control the content, eliminate free speech, and demonstrate their superior intellect to the rest of us.

After all, falsehoods do not exist on wallstreet, the government or the world, so it must be easy to determine the truth here.
We should all submit to the higher authority. I think I'll sit this one out.

No Worry ..

We all learn sooner or later Who "Knows It All" :D

IT took me a little longer than most. ;)

jbsilver
03-09-2011, 04:11 PM
Some on this forum believe themselves to be the ultimate Arbiters of content.

Maybe it would be better to have the forum bullies control the content, .

Noooooooooooo!!! I don't want read here the same "rubbish" I can get from CNBC. Those one line/question content creators (can you prove it/ is it a fact or opinion) would make this board booooooring! I prefer those that cheer todamoon and bake cakes.... at least it is fun and positive thinking.


JPM is in serious trouble and don't ask me if this is my opinion or fact or if I can prove it. This is opinion shared by many people much smarter than me . I trust Ted Butler opinion more than "facts" presented by those level headed scorn type wise men.

theplantguy
03-09-2011, 04:22 PM
Did anyone notice that the article referenced
http://tfmetalsreport.blogspot.com/
never said "JPM is in SERIOUS TROUBLE! "

What the sarticle did say was:
Whether or not this is due to whimsical dealings of internet folklore or the very real machinations of The Cartel, no one can be certain.

The bulk of the article was about gold and oil.

GoldarSilvarGam
03-09-2011, 04:28 PM
JPMorgan Chase says profits for the recent quarter were almost 50 percent higher than last year. The bank reported fourth-quarter profits at $4.8 billion Friday, saying its losses from bad loans declined, which boosted earnings.

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/14/132929926/jpmorgan-chase-4-8-billion-4th-quarter-profit

Does it look like they are in trouble?

Unless JPM is able to classify it's short positions as a hedge (doubtful), then its short silver positions have been accounted for using mark-to-market accounting, being recognized in prior periods gradually as positions have built up. Thus, the settlement or clearing of these positions I presume will not have a significant earnings impact in the period it takes place, since the losses have already been recognized. However, a change in position limits could force settlement of much of their short position, which I presume, if large enough, could pose a material liquidity risk to JPM, a la the Hunt Brothers--something to keep an eye on, though JPM has a lot more liquidity sources than the Hunts did. The earnings impact takes place over several periods, even years, and is less noticeable--the ultimate cash settlement (at least part of it) takes place all at once.

Just theorizing--I haven't the time to read their 10-K, nor do I expect it would provide significant details of their "investment" endeavors in shorting silver.

Medina
03-09-2011, 04:41 PM
+1

There is allso an outside chance for Hyperdeflation.:eek:

Not that that will be any less painfull... :o

Thanks, Yes youre right, I dont know what Silver and Gold would do, I think still Skyrocket. We are already Massively deflating in Real Estate and Luxourious goods.

DaveH
03-09-2011, 04:53 PM
Don't buy silver because of a "short squeeze" or "end to manipulation occurring". Buy it because you understand the fundamentals of the current world economy and where our debt is taking us. The supply has been "running out" for years. Here is an article from 11 years ago where we only had a few years left. Ignore the hype and just concentrate on the facts there are enough of them to warrant being very bullish.

Silver to Zero by David Morgan October 20, 2000
http://www.silver-investor.com/davidmorgan/Silver2Zero.htm

It all sounds a lot like what is still being said today!

ToDaMoon
03-09-2011, 05:46 PM
Don't buy silver because of a "short squeeze" or "end to manipulation occurring". Buy it because you understand the fundamentals of the current world economy and where our debt is taking us. The supply has been "running out" for years. Here is an article from 11 years ago where we only had a few years left. Ignore the hype and just concentrate on the facts there are enough of them to warrant being very bullish.

Silver to Zero by David Morgan October 20, 2000
http://www.silver-investor.com/davidmorgan/Silver2Zero.htm

It all sounds a lot like what is still being said today!

:eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :(

MyPrecious
03-09-2011, 05:51 PM
Does anyone have any actual evidence of people at the silver COMEX where contracts are coerced in cash settlement with at least 25% bonus?

Or are we all just reading the same hearsay? :rolleyes:

theplantguy
03-09-2011, 05:54 PM
Does anyone have any actual evidence of people at the silver COMEX where contracts are coerced in cash settlement with at least 25% bonus?

Or are we all just reading the same hearsay? :rolleyes:

I've asked the same question. If it were true, every trader and their uncle would be buying silver contracts including me for a fat 25% return.

Dhaugen
03-09-2011, 06:02 PM
Don't buy silver because of a "short squeeze" or "end to manipulation occurring". Buy it because you understand the fundamentals of the current world economy and where our debt is taking us. The supply has been "running out" for years. Here is an article from 11 years ago where we only had a few years left. Ignore the hype and just concentrate on the facts there are enough of them to warrant being very bullish.

Silver to Zero by David Morgan October 20, 2000
http://www.silver-investor.com/davidmorgan/Silver2Zero.htm

It all sounds a lot like what is still being said today!



Well Said,..... I am thankfull to many of you, as that has helped me to start Stacking,...for good reasons, safety net, comfort of mind, asset diversification, just in case, the unkowns,..Then there are the supply and demand fundamentals,...world debt unheard of in human history, Big players and us small time dudes just a stacking and rackin away,...

Like Gary V says "Crush it!"

Keep on Stackin on,...

d

GDAY2U
03-09-2011, 06:22 PM
SILVER IS A GREAT BUY AT THESE PRICES. Did I just state a fact or opinion? It is all so confusing.....

ingots
03-09-2011, 06:50 PM
So what is your name?
Where you live?


The world is waiting.

it sure isnt TURD.....

how many you tubers would you like to see that talk silver analysis, silver facts, silver stacking ...... in front of the tube that do not do so in disguise?:p

proudandrenewed
03-09-2011, 07:01 PM
You sure have a lot that annoys you. Why don't you take a timeout?

If I see a title that I think is hype or hogwash I just ignore it. I don't flame the poster. Each reader must decide what to read and the worth of what they read.

BTW, Turd Ferguson (name taken from an SNL skit) is one of the best analysts of the PM market that I've ever read. He was pointing out the coincidence of the $36 range being a huge battleground currently in light of the info in the Wynter Benton post from November. I found it interesting. And no matter how you cut it, JPM IS in serious trouble--Ponzi schemes always fail. It's just a question of timing.

Same sentiment and opinion here.
Life is too short to be spent on bickering and fault finding.

helopilot
03-09-2011, 07:02 PM
All though it was touched on in a couple of posts, I don't think that the general responses zeroed in on the 800 lb. gorilla in the room. In the last financial crisis was it the actual sub-prime loans that cause the crisis? NO! It was the CDOs and CDSs that dwarfed the size of the actual loans that crashed the system. I have read estimates of up to a quadrillion dollars in derivatives are out there that are not cleared through any market. Read that as casino type bets and insurance without reserves. Large portion of the bail out of AIG went to GS to cover CDSs. The PM derivatives market dwarfs the actual silver market. How much JPM is on the hook for in this casino is a very deep and dark and well guarded secret. They could very well be is serious trouble, but then, we all know that actually means the tax payer is in serious trouble.

Silver Oldie
03-09-2011, 07:04 PM
I've asked the same question. If it were true, every trader and their uncle would be buying silver contracts including me for a fat 25% return.



What if a contingency to the the payment of the 25%, 50%, or 80% bribe to not stand for delivery is a legally binding no disclosure agreement? This would certainly explain it's being a rumor and not established fact.

theplantguy
03-09-2011, 07:07 PM
It would have to go through your broker. There would be a paper trail a mile long.

Silver Oldie
03-09-2011, 07:26 PM
It would have to go through your broker. There would be a paper trail a mile long.


Sure the sale of the position goes through a broker, but there is nothing to prevent a JPM minion from handling the bribe in a more discrete manner, such as a suite case full of Franklins, and the silence bought with a contract on the recipients life!

theplantguy
03-09-2011, 07:39 PM
What.....he hands my broker a suitcase full of cash and my broker mails it to me? The broker can't reviel who his client is without the clients permission. and then everything still has to go through the broker.

the_sirius_one
03-09-2011, 07:53 PM
...there is nothing to prevent a JPM minion from handling the bribe in a more discrete manner, such as a suite case full of Franklins...

Do you truly believe that individual bribes have been made to the thousands of LONGs spread far and wide without a peep. Did they take long to negotiate these deals? Most financial entities do not accept first offers.
Are some deals sweeter than others? What platform or forum was used to negotiate? What money was used to pay the bribes? Was WB paid off too?

I think this theory is out of control. For it to be plausible, all loose ends must have answers that make some kind of sense.

Someone run us through a believable story, please. Make it up, if you can. At least GG had an imagination.

And I'm Sirius

About AG
03-09-2011, 08:29 PM
What if a contingency to the the payment of the 25%, 50%, or 80% bribe to not stand for delivery is a legally binding no disclosure agreement? This would certainly explain it's being a rumor and not established fact.

That's the amazing thing, is that none of the rumors include the nondisclosure component. Wynter Benton, if her story is true, either got the 80% premium without having to sign a nondisclosure, or broke it.

Silver Oldie
03-09-2011, 09:00 PM
Do you truly believe that individual bribes have been made to the thousands of LONGs spread far and wide without a peep. Did they take long to negotiate these deals? Most financial entities do not accept first offers.
Are some deals sweeter than others? What platform or forum was used to negotiate? What money was used to pay the bribes? Was WB paid off too?

I think this theory is out of control. For it to be plausible, all loose ends must have answers that make some kind of sense.

Someone run us through a believable story, please. Make it up, if you can. At least GG had an imagination.

And I'm Sirius


What thousands of longs spread far and wide where? In this scenario, only a few entities big enough on to put a big hurt on Comex and JPM are considered worthwhile to bribe to not stand for delivery.

theplantguy
03-09-2011, 09:04 PM
Just how do we know that the Comex or JPM has bribed anyone?

Silver Oldie
03-09-2011, 09:07 PM
That's the amazing thing, is that none of the rumors include the nondisclosure component. Wynter Benton, if her story is true, either got the 80% premium without having to sign a nondisclosure, or broke it.



We don't even know for sure if Wynter Benton exists or who he/she really is. How can a pseudonym break a real person's possible agreement on silence? Maybe that is one of the reasons for the cover name.

theplantguy
03-09-2011, 09:09 PM
Maybe? But how do we know that anyone has recieved a bribe from either Comex or JPM?

Silver Oldie
03-09-2011, 09:33 PM
Maybe? But how do we know that anyone has recieved a bribe from either Comex or JPM?



Circumstantial evidence. If I understand it correctly, there were a lot of holders of contracts fully funded and standing for delivery until the last day when they inexplicably sold. Please explain to me why anyone would go to all the trouble of putting this money in the Comex account if they intended to sell their contracts without further compensation. This could have been done on a margin account and wouldn't have required a boodle of fiat short term. Someone on another forum compared the situation to reservations on a flight or hotel room being dishonored when you arrive at the facility. How many of you would be satisfied with 'sorry it is full' or we will refund your money?

theplantguy
03-09-2011, 09:44 PM
How familiar are you with the commodity market? I'm sure if you investigated further you would find exactly the same thing happens with virtually all commodities to one degree or another. I believe we are reading into this something that just isn't happening. Until some of the longs actually confirms they are being bribed, I think we have to file this as speculation at best.

the_sirius_one
03-09-2011, 10:13 PM
What thousands of longs spread far and wide where? In this scenario, only a few entities big enough on to put a big hurt on Comex and JPM are considered worthwhile to bribe to not stand for delivery.

There are many fragmented LONGs, relative small, and indeed spread out, maybe hundreds not thousands. There are only a few large commercial SHORTs plus the true producers.

Now remember, the IO dropped by over 80% in the few day timeframe at issue.

This IMO, would require many LONGs to agree to a bribe, all in a NY minute.

Do you think the WB was one of these large bribes?

S

Silver Oldie
03-09-2011, 10:35 PM
How familiar are you with the commodity market? I'm sure if you investigated further you would find exactly the same thing happens with virtually all commodities to one degree or another. I believe we are reading into this something that just isn't happening. Until some of the longs actually confirms they are being bribed, I think we have to file this as speculation at best.


If you are saying that fulling funding contracts to the last day and then selling is a common practice in commodities, I think you are full of it.
Also, we are not talking here about bulky or perishable things that no one in their right mind would take delivery of unless they were a broker, end user or had connections to sell it immediately for a profit. Silver's dual nature as industrial necessity and real money puts it in a different category that challenges fiat and fiat defenders.

Silver Oldie
03-09-2011, 10:51 PM
There are many fragmented LONGs, relative small, and indeed spread out, maybe hundreds not thousands. There are only a few large commercial SHORTs plus the true producers.

Now remember, the IO dropped by over 80% in the few day timeframe at issue.

This IMO, would require many LONGs to agree to a bribe, all in a NY minute.

Do you think the WB was one of these large bribes?

S



Until you can show me proof that there were indeed hundreds of small investors with fully funded positions standing for delivery until the last day rather than a few biggies or hedge funds, I feel it unnecessary to speculate on who was the bribee.

About AG
03-10-2011, 07:11 AM
We don't even know for sure if Wynter Benton exists or who he/she really is. How can a pseudonym break a real person's possible agreement on silence? Maybe that is one of the reasons for the cover name.

Think about this one for a minute. Do you think that the contract would state "You agree not to disclose that you are receiving a cash premium", or "You agree not to disclose under your name that you are receiving a cash premium"?

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 07:25 AM
Until you can show me proof that there were indeed hundreds of small investors with fully funded positions standing for delivery until the last day rather than a few biggies or hedge funds, I feel it unnecessary to speculate on who was the bribee.

So you would rather believe as a fact something that there is not one shred of evidence that any real person or firm has been paid a bribe rather than say "I think it is happening, but I don't have any proof"?

GetZeeGold
03-10-2011, 07:28 AM
So you would rather believe as a fact something that there is not one shred of evidence that any real person or firm has been paid a bribe rather than say "I think it is happening, but I don't have any proof"?

Dude....you're still doing this?

Take a break man!:D

Lostboy
03-10-2011, 10:25 AM
Contrary to what seems to be the very popular belief:

There are many, many people playing the trading game WHO DO NOT wish to take delivery.
These people actually panic on witching days, if they don't close out in time.

My very close friend is one of these types of people.

He does not need to be bribed by anyone to close out his position without delivery. Trust me, he does not want any physical.

I know, I know, it's hard to believe.......it's a much different way of thinkin'.

About AG
03-10-2011, 10:42 AM
Contrary to what seems to be the very popular belief:

There are many, many people playing the trading game WHO DO NOT wish to take delivery.
These people actually panic on witching days, if they don't close out in time.

My very close friend is one of these types of people.

He does not need to be bribed by anyone to close out his position without delivery. Trust me, he does not want any physical.

I know, I know, it's hard to believe.......it's a much different way of thinkin'.

Ah, but you don't take physical delivery when you stand for delivery. Yeah, I know it doesn't sound right, but it is true.

When you stand for delivery, you get a warehouse receipt that says that you are the legal owner of bars of silver in a COMEX warehouse. You decide if/when you take them out, and where they go. So there actually is no need to ever handle the silver bars (assuming you trust COMEX warehouses). Of course, this does require putting down 100% of the value of the contract, which isn't fun for people who play on margin.

The other thing is that while your friend doesn't need to be bribed, if he knew for a fact that he could get an 80% premium, why not stand for delivery and get the premium? The worst case is he gets no money, in which case he can just go short and in effect return the warehouse receipts.

jbsilver
03-10-2011, 11:18 AM
Contrary to what seems to be the very popular belief:

There are many, many people playing the trading game WHO DO NOT wish to take delivery.
These people actually panic on witching days, if they don't close out in time.

My very close friend is one of these types of people.

He does not need to be bribed by anyone to close out his position without delivery. Trust me, he does not want any physical.

I know, I know, it's hard to believe.......it's a much different way of thinkin'.

So maybe it works as this:

I see on E-bay auction of collector grade... Harley Davidson. I am not biker but seeing growing demand for Harleys I decide to buy it and flop it for profit. I won the auction and I am telling seller to not deliver this bike to me because I don't have room in my condo to store it and I want to list this bike on ebay to sell it to another Harley enthusiast. Seller is happy because he still can enjoy/ride the bike he sold for another week or two and potential shipping address change do not make much difference. Bike is sold to another investor and he is doing the same. When taking a ride on sunday custodian crash the bike and no longer has it but because every future owner do not ask for delivery there is no problem... until finnaly one of buyer actually want to ride it not flopping it. So Mr. A has to sue Mr B.... Mr B has to sue Mr C...

I know very little about commodity trading so it is my naive understanding why shorts do not have to deliver.

MyBids
03-10-2011, 11:21 AM
So you think the forum would work well if everyone posted lies?

It's one thing to say "JPM could be in serious trouble", or "I am sure JPM is in serious trouble" without a disclaimer. Both are true, and based on opinions. It's another to make up a statement "JPM is in SERIOUS TROUBLE", that is untrue but posted as a fact.

It's amazing how many people do not understand the difference between something stated as fact and something stated as an opinion.



What the hell is wrong with you? This is an informal forum for general public comments. Not some pretegious think tank.

ianian
03-10-2011, 11:28 AM
There was a kitco member who posted about having many obstacles put in his way when he tried to take physical delivery of his paid up 5000 oz. contract. Every step of the way obstacles were put in the path.. from the futures broker to the clearing house... up to apparently the exchange. If I recall correctly he did receive it but it took months. And it was just a single contract for 5000 oz.

I wondered at the time if he had to pay the storage fees for all the time since the delay was not due to his actions but those of other parties.

nuts4gold
03-10-2011, 11:47 AM
So you would rather believe as a fact something that there is not one shred of evidence that any real person or firm has been paid a bribe rather than say "I think it is happening, but I don't have any proof"?

I do believe this is getting really old...

nuts4gold
03-10-2011, 11:52 AM
Well it does seem as though jpm shorts are paying off today they must have some very skillful people (blythe) working for them in that they may have correctly predicted a fall in the stocks...

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 11:57 AM
Well it does seem as though jpm shorts are paying off today they must have some very skillful people (blythe) working for them in that they may have correctly predicted a fall in the stocks...

How do you know JPM is shorting?

jbsilver
03-10-2011, 12:16 PM
How do you know JPM is shorting?

I read about it on this forum. Shorting means selling...right???

Do you think JPM is buying? If they were buying price POS should go up not down.


Disclaimer:
My opinion is based on opinions of other people and is not based on any verifible proofs or facts.

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 12:16 PM
What the hell is wrong with you? This is an informal forum for general public comments. Not some pretegious think tank.

Don't you love how some folks are so civil. If they don't agree with someone, they start cussing and denigrating them....................... sheeesh

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 12:19 PM
I read about it on this forum. Shorting means selling...right???

Do you think JPM is buying? If they were buying price POS should go up not down.


Disclaimer:
My opinion is based on opinions of other people and is not based on any verifible proofs or facts.

You are exactly right, shorting is the same as selling in the commodity market. The problem arises when we say someone in particular is doing it. We have absolutely no way of knowing who is buying or selling.

About AG
03-10-2011, 12:41 PM
I know very little about commodity trading so it is my naive understanding why shorts do not have to deliver.

Shorts are required by law to deliver.

The catch is that most longs and most shorts roll over their contracts, which means that before the Last Trade day the shorts buy long contracts from the longs. The long now has no contracts, so does not have to receive silver. The short now has a long and a short contract, so they owe themselves silver, which cancels out.

If the short chooses not to buy a long contract, however, they are required to deliver the silver. If they cannot, their broker is required to. If their broker cannot, then COMEX tries to, and if they cannot, they can legally settle in cash (although the short and broker could be sued).

If the short contacted the long and the long agreed to accept $180 (or $120 or $130 or whatever) for every $100 they put up, then the short does not have to deliver.

jbsilver
03-10-2011, 12:52 PM
You are exactly right, shorting is the same as selling in the commodity market. The problem arises when we say someone in particular is doing it. We have absolutely no way of knowing who is buying or selling.

Does it mean there is no paper trail??? So the talk about enacting position limits is pointless if nobody know who seller is? How come such person like Ted Butler can claim there is basically one seller left ? How people suing JPM know if this bank has any positions at all?

Disclaimer:
My opinion is based on opinions of other people and is not based on any verifible proofs or facts.

ouchtouch
03-10-2011, 01:10 PM
Nobody who hasn't seen JPM's hedge book knows whether or not they are net long or net short. They can be short on the COMEX and long in private party deals, e.g. with the Federal Reserve, the Chinese, or anyone else.

AnotherDave
03-10-2011, 01:12 PM
Does it mean there is no paper trail??? So the talk about enacting position limits is pointless if nobody know who seller is? How come such person like Ted Butler can claim there is basically one seller left ? How people suing JPM know if this bank has any positions at all?

...and in what way does any of this help the market to discover the price of Ag?

Ignore them, except to buy when the numbers are in your favor!

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 01:18 PM
Does it mean there is no paper trail??? So the talk about enacting position limits is pointless if nobody know who seller is? How come such person like Ted Butler can claim there is basically one seller left ? How people suing JPM know if this bank has any positions at all?

Disclaimer:
My opinion is based on opinions of other people and is not based on any verifible proofs or facts.

There is definitely a paper trail, but you and I aren't privy to it. Just those involved. Ted Butler can't know either, only guesses.
Those suing don't know until until records are requested by the court.

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 01:19 PM
...and in what way does any of this help the market to discover the price of Ag?

Ignore them, except to buy when the numbers are in your favor!

The prices are reported, just not who the buyers and shorters are.

jbsilver
03-10-2011, 01:22 PM
Shorts are required by law to deliver.

The catch is that most longs and most shorts roll over their contracts, which means that before the Last Trade day the shorts buy long contracts from the longs. The long now has no contracts, so does not have to receive silver. The short now has a long and a short contract, so they owe themselves silver, which cancels out.

If the short chooses not to buy a long contract, however, they are required to deliver the silver. If they cannot, their broker is required to. If their broker cannot, then COMEX tries to, and if they cannot, they can legally settle in cash (although the short and broker could be sued).

If the short contacted the long and the long agreed to accept $180 (or $120 or $130 or whatever) for every $100 they put up, then the short does not have to deliver.

Thank you for explanation but I think it is still beyond my ability to really understand it. Seller (Short ) is selling to Buyer (me) 1oz of silver for $34 and before the last day of trade the same seller is buying from me what he sold to me for what? $34??? If seller is buying back something without added premium I still do not understand why buyer bought it in first place. Usually when you buy something you buy it because either you need it or you want to hold it expecting future price increase. Selling what you just bought for the same price (without charging any premium) make no sense for me or even any coin dealer...
I have to be very dumb ... :confused:

HerbieRay
03-10-2011, 01:30 PM
darn it! U mean we're not all gonna die? And here I went out and bought insurance, and now they tell me Im not gonna die! What a rip off!

About AG
03-10-2011, 01:33 PM
Thank you for explanation but I think it is still beyond my ability to really understand it. Seller (Short ) is selling to Buyer (me) 1oz of silver for $34 and before the last day of trade the same seller is buying from me what he sold to me for what? $34???

The key is that when the long sells it back to the short, it is at the prevailing price.

Let's say that you go short 1oz today, and I go long 1oz today (for May delivery). Let's say that the spot price just before our trade happens was $35.00 exactly, and our trade goes through at that amount (since we both happened to put in our orders for $35.00).

Near the end of April, the spot price is now at $38. I really don't want any silver (yuck, physical, I say!). Perhaps I put in an order to sell at $38.50. There are no takers. It's now a few hours before the end of the Last Trade day (at which point I would have to put up the entire money for the contract). Spot is now $38.20, and I go ahead and change the order to that price.

Without going into margin, you could say I made $3.20 on this trade, and you lost $3.20 on this trade.

In reality, it would be quite different (as I might have put down $3 for the trade, but if the price dipped in the meantime I could have been stuck with a margin call, etc.).

ianian
03-10-2011, 01:47 PM
The catch is that most longs and most shorts roll over their contracts, which means that before the Last Trade day the shorts buy long contracts from the longs. The long now has no contracts, so does not have to receive silver. The short now has a long and a short contract, so they owe themselves silver, which cancels out.


The info provided in this quote is wrong. On a couple of levels.

If people really want to understand how futures positions are closed out (or want to tell people how it is done) it would behoove them to open up a futures account themselves and do some trades, or join a futures traders forum, or call up a futures broker and ask them.

jbsilver
03-10-2011, 01:55 PM
The key is that when the long sells it back to the short, it is at the prevailing price.

.

Ok thanks again. This time I got it ! :)

About AG
03-10-2011, 02:01 PM
The info provided in this quote is wrong. On a couple of levels.

Could you please elaborate?

The only thing that I can think of that could be considered wrong is that rolling over means moving your contracts from one month to a later month (whereas the process I described was simply closing out the contract, which is the piece that people usually seem to have troubles understanding). But rolling over is just that piece plus buying/selling the contract for the later month.

gmacrae
03-10-2011, 02:24 PM
Thanks for posting, that blogger does appear to have some decent credibility - another good site to keep an eye on, cheers :D

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 02:34 PM
The info provided in this quote is wrong. On a couple of levels.

If people really want to understand how futures positions are closed out (or want to tell people how it is done) it would behoove them to open up a futures account themselves and do some trades, or join a futures traders forum, or call up a futures broker and ask them.

I have posted the number to Lind Waldock (Call 1-800-445-2000) several times. It appears no one has even bothered calling to ask questions so that they might be more informed about futures tradings.
http://www.lind-waldock.com/contact.shtml

ianian
03-10-2011, 02:41 PM
Could you please elaborate?

The only thing that I can think of that could be considered wrong is that rolling over means moving your contracts from one month to a later month (whereas the process I described was simply closing out the contract, which is the piece that people usually seem to have troubles understanding). But rolling over is just that piece plus buying/selling the contract for the later month.

Sure I will elaborate: If you are going to be offering information about an activity it seems reasonable that you are involved in that activity. It is very easy to open and fund a futures account and does not require a huge amount of money to do so. Then do a few trades most of which will likely be loosing trades and from that you will have a much more informed knowledge base to share with others.

Regarding the details of the errors... longs and shorts do not buy or sell from each other... the trades are crossed by a clearing member of the exchange. Someone who is short contracts may not have to do anything to be closed out of the position. They may have also been short put options equal to the number of futures contracts they were short. Or they could be long some calls.

I understand your intent is to be helpful but I would suggest that the way you can do that most effectively is to speak from experience. And clearly you are not doing so when you speak about futures. You seem to be very interested in all things that have to do with silver so it would be a perfect next step for you to start trading silver in the futures market.

About AG
03-10-2011, 02:48 PM
Regarding the details of the errors... longs and shorts do not buy or sell from each other... the trades are crossed by a clearing member of the exchange. Someone who is short contracts may not have to do anything to be closed out of the position. They may have also been short put options equal to the number of futures contracts they were short. Or they could be long some calls.

Yes, the longs and shorts do buy/sell through the clearinghouse, but the people doing the buying/selling are the longs/shorts. So in the example I gave, the short buys from the long through the clearinghouse.

And yes, options can complicate matters. But the options simply get exercised for futures contracts.

nuts4gold
03-10-2011, 03:37 PM
How do you know JPM is shorting?

Why my crystal skull told me in a dream therefore it must be absolutely correct and you are not able to prove differently...

AnotherDave
03-10-2011, 03:45 PM
The prices are reported, just not who the buyers and shorters are.

But the price of WHAT? It can't be Ag, when so many sellers do not have it, and most buyers demonstrably do not want it! Some large proportion of trades are totally without substance on either side of the transaction--fictional money (fiat) traded for a fictional commodity. The only real component is the index number, which I can't decide is artificially high or artificially low.

None of this having a thing to do with PM, other than the fact that dealers will use that index as a starting point when trading physical.

About AG
03-10-2011, 03:50 PM
None of this having a thing to do with PM, other than the fact that dealers will use that index as a starting point when trading physical.

But, there is the fact that shorts are required to deliver.

So the dealer, such as Kitco, sees that the spot price is, say, $35.20. If that really is just a paper price, and nobody is willing to part with their physical silver for $35.20/oz, Kitco would have to raise their price. But guess what? They can buy a COMEX silver futures contract for that $35.20/oz, and stand for delivery, and get it.

If they stand for delivery and want the silver, the only way they will not get it is if COMEX defaults.

[OK, technically COMEX can settle in cash by law, but that would effectively be a COMEX default, in which case the physical and paper prices would diverge dramatically]

AnotherDave
03-10-2011, 04:14 PM
But, there is the fact that shorts are required to deliver.


EXPECTED to deliver!

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 04:17 PM
EXPECTED to deliver!

Required........ or it's breach of contract.............

Jolyman
03-10-2011, 04:24 PM
Deleeeeeat

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 04:31 PM
You must be Kidding...JPM is Not selling short? Show your Proof. Thanks

We have absolutely no way of knowing who is buying and shorting

About AG
03-10-2011, 04:34 PM
EXPECTED to deliver!

Required by law, and they have always done so throughout the (relatively short) history of COMEX (for silver, at least!).

Is it possible that they could default, and be unable to deliver? Yes, and there are a lot of people that have been predicting that for some time (and we have backwardation now, too).

Jolyman
03-10-2011, 04:36 PM
Deleeeeeat

urban prospector
03-10-2011, 04:37 PM
We have absolutely no way of knowing who is buying and shorting

um then why are they being investigated ..
http://www.google.com.au/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=jpm+silver+trades&meta=&btnG=Google+Search .. enough articles about it for you

About AG
03-10-2011, 04:41 PM
um then why are they being investigated ..

Because there is some data out there on banks that can help identify shorts. In the absence of such information, you cannot know for sure. And even with such information, it provides a "snapshot" of where things were when the report was created (so you can never know who sold short today, for example, despite was people like Harvey Organ say).

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 04:42 PM
So we don't KNOW Who is speculating?? Is that correct?

Exactly....................We can guess.........But exchanges don't tell who. It's the same way with the NYSE, CME, NASDAQ. You can see every trade, if it's a buy or sell, the volume, if you have the software and feeds even which market maker, which exchange or ECN executed the trade. But never who the principles are.

urban prospector
03-10-2011, 04:46 PM
Because there is some data out there on banks that can help identify shorts. In the absence of such information, you cannot know for sure. And even with such information, it provides a "snapshot" of where things were when the report was created (so you can never know who sold short today, for example, despite was people like Harvey Organ say).
yes granted .. but do you think the have managed to unload such a short position ,, and how big was the short position they got with leahmans

Carpenter
03-10-2011, 04:53 PM
We have absolutely no way of knowing who is buying and shorting

I don't think that is entirely true.

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 04:56 PM
I don't think that is entirely true.

What procedure would you use to find out who is buying and who is shorting?

Jolyman
03-10-2011, 05:06 PM
Deleeeeeat

ianian
03-10-2011, 05:06 PM
- In terms of the bigger picture, "they" do what they want.


Specifics on what occurs in a failure to deliver:
http://www.cmegroup.com/rulebook/CBOT/I/7/14.html
CBOT Rulebook
Chapter 7. Delivery Facilities and Procedures
Rule 714. FAILURE TO DELIVER


In the event a clearing member fails to fulfill its specific delivery obligations regarding a CBOT product pursuant to CBOT rules, the sole obligation of the Clearing House is to pay reasonable damages proximately caused by such delivery obligation failure, in an amount which shall not exceed the difference between the delivery price of the specific commodity and the reasonable market price of such commodity at the time delivery is required according to the rules of the Exchange. The Clearing House shall not be obligated to: (1) make or accept delivery of the actual commodity; or (2) pay any damages relating to the accuracy, genuineness, completeness, or acceptableness of certificates, instruments, warehouse receipts, shipping certificates, or other similar documents; or (3) pay any damages relating to the failure or insolvency of banks, depositories, warehouses, shipping stations, or similar organizations or entities that may be involved with a delivery.
Notwithstanding any provision of the rules, the Clearing House has no obligation or liability to any clearing member or any other person relating to a failure to fulfill a delivery obligation unless it is notified by the clearing member that did perform, or was in a position to perform its delivery obligations, that a failure occurred, as soon as possible, but in no event later than sixty minutes after the time the delivery obligation was to have been fulfilled according to the rules of the CBOT.
If a clearing member does not fulfill its delivery obligations to another clearing member, it shall be responsible to the Clearing House for any damages incurred by the Clearing House as a result of such delivery obligation failure.
A failure by a clearing member carrying a short futures position to tender a Delivery Notice on or before the time specified by the Clearing House on the last day on which such notice is permitted shall be deemed a violation of this rule, except that the President of the Clearing House may, for good cause, extend the time to present such notice.
Unexcused failure to make delivery shall be deemed an act detrimental to the interest or welfare of the Exchange. In addition to any penalties imposed as provided in Chapter 4, the Clearing House Risk Committee shall determine and assess the damages incurred by the buyer.


Here is the entire CME rulebook on deliveries.
http://www.cmegroup.com/rulebook/CBOT/I/7/13.html
CBOT Rulebook
Chapter 7. Delivery Facilities and Procedures
Rule 713. DELIVERY PROCEDURES

Carpenter
03-10-2011, 05:08 PM
Investors are identified by type.

JPM is one of only a few of it's "type".

Those who follow this closely have deduced the culprits.

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 05:12 PM
Investors are identified by type.

JPM is one of only a few of it's "type".

Those who follow this closely have deduced the culprits.

Do you have any documentation showing this?

Carpenter
03-10-2011, 05:17 PM
Do you have any documentation showing this?

LOL

Read it somewhere. I consider it to be a fact.

urban prospector
03-10-2011, 05:22 PM
put in a freedom of info request

Carpenter
03-10-2011, 06:35 PM
Do you have any documentation showing this?

Page 32 table 9 ;).
http://www.occ.gov/topics/capital-markets/financial-markets/trading/derivatives/dq310.pdf

Edit:
Further, the OCC reports prove that JPMorgan not only inherited from Bear Stearns the massive COMEX silver short position in March of 2008 (as well as a COMEX gold short position), it also inherited from Bear Stearns a much larger OTC silver and gold short position. From December 31, 2007 to March 30, 2008, JPMorgan’s OTC silver short position grew from $4.9 billion to $12.5 billion. Adjusting for the 16% price increase in silver between those dates, JPMorgan’s silver short position grew by more than 400 million ounces to as much as 735 million ounces, from 335 million ounces. This is separate and distinct from and in addition to their COMEX silver short position.

theplantguy
03-10-2011, 06:46 PM
That is a 3 rd quarter report issued by the Comptroller of the Currency
Administrator of National Banks. Never once mentioned silver or a trade. This is A typical report that was for July-Sept of 2010.

Carpenter
03-11-2011, 05:31 AM
That is a 3 rd quarter report issued by the Comptroller of the Currency
Administrator of National Banks. Never once mentioned silver or a trade. This is A typical report that was for July-Sept of 2010.



Excuse me, what do you think that report represents?
Did you read any of the report?
The whole report is about Commercial Bank Trading Revenues.
The name of the report is Quarterly Report on Bank Derivatives Activities

It happens to be the most recent one avaliable.
If you need evidence of trading compare the differences of quarterly totals.


In case some one needs clarification
There are many kinds of derivatives, with the most common being swaps, futures,
and options. Derivatives are a form of alternative investment. ...




What do you think $9,817,000.00 in precious metals (other than gold )
represents?.........

My guess is silver........wouldn't you agree?....?

theplantguy
03-11-2011, 05:52 AM
You've changed the subject............we were talking about individual trades.....Not what a banks holdings were 6 months ago.

GetZeeGold
03-11-2011, 05:53 AM
You've changed the subject.........

Someone is obfuscating..........I'M SHOCKED. :cool:

Carpenter
03-11-2011, 05:54 AM
You've changed the subject............we were talking about individual trades.....Not what a banks holdings are.

Read my post again.

If you want to see the trades...... compare quarterly reports, and tally the difference.

What is the name of the report?

theplantguy
03-11-2011, 06:01 AM
You've posted six month old material.................some folks here claim they see JPM's trades every day...............which is not even possible.

GetZeeGold
03-11-2011, 06:02 AM
You've posted six month old material..................

So what happened six months ago?:cool:

Carpenter
03-11-2011, 06:08 AM
You've posted six month old material.................some folks here claim they see JPM's trades every day...............which is not even possible.


It is the most recent avaliable, and exactly the proof you requested.

theplantguy
03-11-2011, 06:10 AM
It is the most recent avaliable, and exactly the proof you requested.

It's not at all what I asked for. What good is 6 month old material?

GetZeeGold
03-11-2011, 06:15 AM
It's not at all what I asked for. What good is 6 month old material?

Naaaa naaaa naaaaa........I can't hear you.......I can't hear you.:D

Carpenter
03-11-2011, 06:20 AM
It's not at all what I asked for. What good is 6 month old material?

It's proof of an activity purposely hidden in real time.

What are you looking for.....proprietary information?

theplantguy
03-11-2011, 06:22 AM
It's proof of an activity purposely hidden in real time.

What are you looking for.....proprietary information?

How does that prove it's purposely hidden? Some folks here claim they can see every trade JPM makes. Which is clearly impossible.

GetZeeGold
03-11-2011, 06:23 AM
What are you looking for.....proprietary information?

Heh heh.........Martha Stewart would like to know.

..........it's a good thing. :D

urban prospector
03-11-2011, 06:25 AM
well lets see can you get the latest daily accounts for who is doing what .. no!!! well it secretive at the least:rolleyes:
like semantics plant ..

Carpenter
03-11-2011, 06:26 AM
How does that prove it's purposely hidden?

It"s not hidden?
What's the trade then?

What is the defintion of proprietary?

theplantguy
03-11-2011, 06:27 AM
well lets see can you get the latest daily accounts for who is doing what .. no!!! well it secretive at the least:rolleyes:
like semantics plant ..

That is what I'm saying. You can't see the trades of any one on any exchange any where. It's not a conspiracy, it's the way all exchanges are weather it's the NYSE, NASDAQ, CME, CBOT.

GetZeeGold
03-11-2011, 06:30 AM
That is what I'm saying. You can't see the trades of any one on any exchange any where.

And when the sky is cloudy.....I cannot prove to you the sky is blue.


......trust me.....it is. :D


Seriously dude.....how far do you want to take this. :cool:

urban prospector
03-11-2011, 06:32 AM
regardless of who is doing the trades, you can only get week old info on the trades that have been made .. yet in other markets you get live updates .. why is this the case ??

Carpenter
03-11-2011, 06:33 AM
That is what I'm saying. You can't see the trades of any one on any exchange any where.

Here we go to the beginning of the circle which was this conversation.

Is not daily trading recorded by type of entity ie commercial bank?

The precious metal trade is heavily concentrated in the top three.

JPM is the leader of those three by far.

Past trades, coupled with daily reports, points the finger in the right direction.

The OCC reports will confirm current suspicions.


Are you GG?:eek:


Edit: My grandson is awake :D I gotta' go.

theplantguy
03-11-2011, 06:34 AM
I'll leave you folks to your fantasy world. I probably don't know anything about how the markets work as I only make a few trades anyway (40 trades yesterday).

Vistula
03-11-2011, 06:35 AM
And when the sky is cloudy.....I cannot prove to you the sky is blue.


......trust me.....it is. :D


Seriously dude.....how far do you want to take this. :cool:

I was done with this post mistakenly having created it, but I have to pipe in on this. Well Done GetZeeGold......Well Done!

bandicou2010
03-11-2011, 08:54 AM
I'll leave you folks to your fantasy world. I probably don't know anything about how the markets work as I only make a few trades anyway (40 trades yesterday).

Don't try to educate us. We'll educacate you... on how markets work. :) When silver goes up JPM is buying, when silver goes down JPM is selling. That's all you need to know. It's all JPM manpulation, and Obama's in on it too!!

P.S. All those trades yesterday we're made against JPM. If you made money, you're very lucky, better to hide today, because they'll be looking for you.

Truth be told, it's shocking how few people understand what a real hedge is. Why future's markets were set up to begin with. What a short is? What a buy is?

HA whatever, at least most people know that you have to run from a Tsunami, not head to the beach to watch it. ANd, I guess that's what really matters.

Carpenter
03-11-2011, 09:32 AM
I'll leave you folks to your fantasy world. I probably don't know anything about how the markets work as I only make a few trades anyway (40 trades yesterday).

Why would you adopt that tone?

onealpha
03-11-2011, 10:35 PM
Who is Wynter Benton? Sounds like Atlas Shrugged. :D

Jolyman
04-10-2011, 01:58 PM
I'll leave you folks to your fantasy world. I probably don't know anything about how the markets work as I only make a few trades anyway (40 trades yesterday).

Oh Well ... Me Too

TTrav
04-10-2011, 02:26 PM
Oh Well ... Me Too
Why did you bump 2 different month old threads while adding nothing to the conversation?

Medina
04-10-2011, 02:28 PM
Does anyone believe that JPM would be shorting the market? It would kill itself.

Carpenter
04-10-2011, 02:33 PM
Does anyone believe that JPM would be shorting the market? It would kill itself.

FT.com December 13 2010
JPMorgan has quietly reduced a large position in the US silver futures market which had been at the centre of a controversy about its impact on global prices for the precious metal.

The decision by JPMorgan was an attempt to deflect public criticism of the bank’s dealings in silver, a person familiar with the matter said. The person added that the bank’s position in silver would from now on be “materially smaller” than in the past

Silver has gone from $30 to $41 since JPM reduced it's position in silver.

Ag Engineer
04-10-2011, 02:36 PM
Why would you adopt that tone?

I can't speak for him, but I would guess it is because of all of the wishful thinking and imaginary actions by their boogeyman of choice that dominates the thought processes of way too many posters here. These people also lack critical thinking skills and usually adopt the childish attitude of "even if you agree with my main point, you must agree with everything I say or you are the enemy and I will crush you", because they only see things in black and white.

In short, they live in a "fantasy world".

ifionlyhadsomegold
04-10-2011, 03:42 PM
$#!^in' on em!

John Galt
04-10-2011, 03:45 PM
There is a Net short position held by banks, in silver; http://www.cftc.gov/MarketReports/BankParticipationReports/index.htm

As to which banks they are, it has stopped being reported since December 2009. Jpm and chase held the biggest positions at that point.

Overall there's a net short going on in silver across the Market, but not by that much anymore;

http://www.cftc.gov/files/dea/cotarchives/2011/options/deacmxlof032911.htm

proudandrenewed
04-10-2011, 03:50 PM
I can't speak for him, but I would guess it is because of all of the wishful thinking and imaginary actions by their boogeyman of choice that dominates the thought processes of way too many posters here. These people also lack critical thinking skills and usually adopt the childish attitude of "even if you agree with my main point, you must agree with everything I say or you are the enemy and I will crush you", because they only see things in black and white.

In short, they live in a "fantasy world".


This might or might not have to do with the discussion at hand, but . .
Can we revisit this?

- - "I believe it is, as Lincoln said in Gettysburg, “altogether fitting and proper“ to conclude this article with these three sentences by J.S. Kim, the Managing Director of the investment consulting firm SmartKnowledgeU:

“Let me dispel your naïvete with a quote by former US Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Alan Blinder: 'The last duty of a central banker is to tell the public the truth.' So it’s not just … the US’s gold reserves that I question, but I question the validity of gold reserve numbers from every key Central Bank in the world. Ask the Bundesbank of Germany if they can prove they have custody of their reserves in their own country and you will likely not receive a straight answer to this relatively simple question either.“iv"

mrgneiss
04-10-2011, 04:07 PM
I can't speak for him, but I would guess it is because of all of the wishful thinking and imaginary actions by their boogeyman of choice that dominates the thought processes of way too many posters here. These people also lack critical thinking skills and usually adopt the childish attitude of "even if you agree with my main point, you must agree with everything I say or you are the enemy and I will crush you", because they only see things in black and white.

In short, they live in a "fantasy world".

Of course it is silly to believe anything and everything. But I suggest that given the following - Goldman Sachs paid half a billion in fines to the SEC, mortgage fraud by almost all the big banks is a fact that affects billions in mortgages, Morgan Stanley sued by investors for charging storage on bullion they didn't have, the SEC investigating Madoff and finding no issues, Madoff claiming JPM had to have known about his Ponzi scheme, JPM and HSBC being sued by hundreds of plaintiffs for silver manipulation, Alan Greenspan as FED chairman admitting to congress they keep the price of gold down by gold leasing, Bart Chilton of the CFTC claiming the price of silver had been manipulatated before the Fall of 2010 - government agencies charged with protecting the consumer and ensuring fair and open markets are incompetent at best and corrupt at worst, and if we can't rely on the government agencies to do their jobs, and the big banks are aware of this, then the illegalities and frauds the banks have been caught in are probably the tip of the iceberg. So if you think there are no manipulations and frauds beyond those which have seen the light of day I suggest you lack serious critical thinking and reasoning skills.

Also, ad hominen attacks are signs of either absence of valid arguments and/or hapless attempts to discredit opponents.

bigerny
04-10-2011, 04:47 PM
Don't try to educate us. We'll educacate you... on how markets work. :) When silver goes up JPM is buying, when silver goes down JPM is selling. That's all you need to know. It's all JPM manpulation, and Obama's in on it too!!

P.S. All those trades yesterday we're made against JPM. If you made money, you're very lucky, better to hide today, because they'll be looking for you.

Truth be told, it's shocking how few people understand what a real hedge is. Why future's markets were set up to begin with. What a short is? What a buy is?

HA whatever, at least most people know that you have to run from a Tsunami, not head to the beach to watch it. ANd, I guess that's what really matters.

I wish I was smart.:rolleyes:

Carpenter
04-10-2011, 04:50 PM
There is a Net short position held by banks, in silver; http://www.cftc.gov/MarketReports/BankParticipationReports/index.htm

As to which banks they are, it has stopped being reported since December 2009. Jpm and chase held the biggest positions at that point.

Overall there's a net short going on in silver across the Market, but not by that much anymore;

http://www.cftc.gov/files/dea/cotarchives/2011/options/deacmxlof032911.htm

Thank you.

Jolyman
04-10-2011, 07:12 PM
Why did you bump 2 different month old threads while adding nothing to the conversation?

Because I wanted to. :D