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View Full Version : Jury comes back with final decision on the 1933 $20 Saints!


Numisgold
07-20-2011, 04:34 PM
http://www.coinworld.com/articles/1933-double-eagle-trial-government-wins/

More to come tomorrow.

I'm rather shocked a result came out that quickly.

Numisgold

digbird
07-20-2011, 04:54 PM
Thanks Numisgold....interesting out come. I've followed this for a few years and often wondered how this would end. They better keep the other ones hidden eh...lol.

torpedoman
07-20-2011, 07:15 PM
Just how stupid do you have to be to trust the government with any form of money much less gold?

Prospector
07-20-2011, 07:17 PM
Stupid hurts.

coindog
07-20-2011, 07:45 PM
I really thought they would work out a deal kinda like the first one where both sides got a share. or there would be more of an anti greedy govt. feeling on the jury and they would side with the citizens. doesn't matter now but when the story first came out I thought why did they let on to all ten of them? they should just "discover" 2 and see what happens.

get N set
07-20-2011, 07:59 PM
well, they were in fact stolen...

Twostaff
07-20-2011, 08:29 PM
There is no realistic way a private citizen could have been in possession of them.

However I'd love to see them in the hands of numismatists.

They should have just kept their mouths shut instead of getting all greedy. there probably are more out there, the owners just arent as stupid.

SmPot
07-20-2011, 09:21 PM
Stupid hurts.

Yep, totally agree. Epidemic of it these days.

coindog
07-20-2011, 09:34 PM
well, they were in fact stolen...

and so was most of the gold that made Europe wealthy in the 17th to19th century.

yellowsnow
07-20-2011, 09:50 PM
this clearly reaffirm the statement: if u can't touch it, it ain't your

what Landborgs did was trading physical on an presumption that the gov't will return their coins, they didn't even get fiat paper or a promissory note.

So, don't forget to hug your special morgan or double eagle tonite and count your blessing:)

SmPot
07-20-2011, 09:52 PM
well, they were in fact stolen...

And since that is beyond a reasonable doubt, in fact, true - the outcome of an impartial jury is pretty much predictable. Guessing no goldbugs allowed on the jury for potential jury nullification. :p

SILVER PATRON
07-20-2011, 10:33 PM
Presumably the coins were obtained illegally & the government confiscated all ten within their right. Presumed owners walked away with nothing. Perhaps submitting just one & wait for the outcome & maybe just sell the rest to private individuals & walk away with something. I don't know but what would you do?

SmPot
07-21-2011, 07:28 AM
Presumably the coins were obtained illegally & the government confiscated all ten within their right. Presumed owners walked away with nothing. Perhaps submitting just one & wait for the outcome & maybe just sell the rest to private individuals & walk away with something. I don't know but what would you do?

Interesting question. To put it in perspective, what would you do if you found that a relative who worked for NASA had stolen a genuine moon rock and put it in the SDB, found by you on their passing? Government property, even if you could confirm its authenticity. I just phrased it this way in an attempt to overcome the pro-gold bias here. Virtually invaluable, high monetary value, but possibly impossible to sell. A conundrum.

johndaniels
07-21-2011, 07:38 AM
Doesn't effect honest gold holders.

Moral?

Fools trust the government. Never trust the system.

exchange
07-21-2011, 07:54 AM
http://www.coinworld.com/articles/1933-double-eagle-trial-government-wins/

More to come tomorrow.

I'm rather shocked a result came out that quickly.

Numisgold

Not shocked at all. When money is involved, there are no boundaries and unfortunately its only going to get worse. Thousands of items were supposely stolen and are stolen over the centuries from the US government, yet they do not care for most.

Not bad for a traditional item!

exchange

exchange

AgGregator
07-21-2011, 12:05 PM
well, they were in fact stolen...

Is it a Fact?


Lawyers for Langbord and her two sons Roy and David, argue in court documents that having a theory as to how the coins left the mint isn't enough. The government must prove the coins were stolen. They argue that in the 1930s, it was common and even permissible for employees of the mint to replace old coins with new ones of equal value.



http://lunaticg.blogspot.com/2011/07/battle-for-1933-double-eagles.html




I think all that has been decided so far is that the Gov. was right in confiscating. The decision on who owns them is still to come.


The trial judge, Legrome Davis, will next rule on “ownership” of the coins later this year.

http://lunaticg.blogspot.com/2011/07/double-eagles-case-govt-can-seized.html

:rolleyes:


More Info:

http://articles.philly.com/2011-07-20/news/29794648_1_double-eagle-coins-israel-switt-philadelphia-mint

Goldbrix
07-21-2011, 03:00 PM
well, they were in fact stolen...

Was there a statement made in 1933 that there were Double Eagles / $20.00 Gold Saints stolen from the mint ?
I think, NOT.
So therefore, there is no Stolen Property.

I say the Statute of Limitations has well expired and the government had, by lack of action, given up any right to the coins.

Very much like the salvage treasure hunters, I see this should have been AND probably at the Appeals Level or USSC Level, be a negotiated settlement.

Wish I had been on this jury. If I could not have persuaded my fellow jurors I'd definitely made it a Hung Jury.

Numisgold
07-21-2011, 03:28 PM
No jury is impartial. This one was made up of 80% women. I wonder if the verdict would have been different with 80% men, considering that men tend to be the collectors of things like coins, stamps, guns, gold, etc. In other words men "get it" when it comes to collecting tangible assets. One doesn't find near as many women in the collectible's fields, and certainly not in coins. If I were the lawyer I'd have worked overtime to get that jury to as close to a 50/50 mix as possible. What this case needed was the Casey Anthony jury. And this jury would have served us better on the C.A. trial.

And I agree, these coins were not stolen. Worst case is that they were exchanged for other $20 coins because the mint melted the precise weight of all the 1933 $20's minted. The Farouk 1933 $20 has already been declared monetized and legal to own....yet undoubtedy came from the same source as these other 10, or was acquired in a similar manner. Yet that one is certainly not considered "stolen" while some think these 10 are. Quite a conundrum....and not consistent at all.

Numisgold

Jjack
07-21-2011, 03:58 PM
Moral of the story The House err Government always wins...

Angmar
07-21-2011, 04:17 PM
And I agree, these coins were not stolen. Worst case is that they were exchanged for other $20 coins because the mint melted the precise weight of all the 1933 $20's minted.

Numisgold Yes they were stolen!

Plain and simple. 1933 double eagles were never officially released into circulation, therefore as an official coin they do not exist per se.

Regardless of what happened to get these coins out of the mint, they officially do not exist and therefore one cannot own these particular coins.

rev318
07-21-2011, 05:05 PM
The gov. is determined to TAKE IT ALL. This is a good illustration of their using their muscle to run over private citizens. Yes, they NEVER should have disclosed the gold to the gov. in the first place. Now they have NONE and the gov. HAS IT ALL. What happened to possession is 9/10s of the law? I think there is a lesson here. Get your physical gold OUT OF REACH OF THE GOVERNMENT. Don't leave it in banks or other recorded financial institutions. Who knows what the gov. will do about ALL gold owned by private citizens. Yes I know it seems far off and absurd but look at what Obama has done in his short term in office. We are sliding down a slippery slope at an alarming speed!!!! I don't know about individual rights in the future. It appears that this government has a motto ALL FOR ME AND NONE FOR YOU. Consider the debate on the debt ceiling. Obama wants to RAISE IT WITHOUT ANY LIMITS! No congressional restraint just a blank slate to do what he wants to with the debt ceiling and they just might fold and LET HIM! Also he wants to RAISE TAXES and they just might let him get away with that too!!!!!!! WOW it's starting to look mighty scary for the US dollar and our financial stability.:(

thod00
07-21-2011, 05:22 PM
The mint says none were ever sold, yet

In 1937, U.S. officials seized nearly 100 pre-1933 double eagles from him as he prepared to board a train to Baltimore to meet with a coin dealer. Switt said he knew it was illegal to possess the gold coins, and said he had eventually planned to surrender them, according to a ruling issued by the trial judge this week.

In 1944, the Secret Service traced 10 separate double eagle coins that had surfaced to Switt. He acknowledged selling nine of them, but said he did not recall how he had gotten them. The statute of limitations prevented authorities from prosecuting Switt.

I would say, he found a way of getting some out. They got him with the first 100, then they got him again with another 10. This 10 is yet another batch he managed to squirrel away. They are stolen property. It would not surprise me it all if the family has more. They will have to decide to melt them or not. The question is if the family should be prosecuted for holding stolen goods knowing they were stolen.

Numisgold
07-21-2011, 09:11 PM
Yes they were stolen!

Plain and simple. 1933 double eagles were never officially released into circulation, therefore as an official coin they do not exist per se.

Regardless of what happened to get these coins out of the mint, they officially do not exist and therefore one cannot own these particular coins.

Then let the US mint show the written declaration in March/April 1933 that this was the case. As far as I know, there was a 30 day window in April-May 1933 where someone could have gotten one of these at the mint. If we go by the "official" release rules, then 1913 Lib nickels, 1804 silver dollars, 1894-s dimes, 1801-1803 proof silver dollars, 1856 flying eagle cents, branch mint proofs from 1855 to 1893, 1876-cc 20c pieces, 1870-s half dimes, 1873-cc no arrows dimes and quarters, and a host of other coins should immediately be confiscated by the US secret service since they were never officially authorized/issued.

Who knows what Switt said to the govt in 1933 as that is probably not documented anywhere. Heresay doesn't count. And even if he did say they were "illegal to own," he could just as easily have meant that in the govt's opinion they were illegal to own, not necessarily his opinion. Back in the 1930's whatever the govt said was how it went....legal or otherwise. FDR's original decree in April 1933 wasn't even a legal order. It wasn't until the Treasury Secretary signed the order in Sept/Oct 1933 that it was a lawful order.

I like the way coin dealer Julian Leidman summed up the situation. He has handled many major US rarities including J-1776 (1907 unique Indian Head $20 gold pattern and probably the most valuable US coin in private hands) and ironically, one of the currently hidden 1933 Saints.

Things like this have gone on at all the mints, even into the nineties, maybe even today; who knows? Even the great Treasury liquidation of silver $ during the 60's had insiders.

If Harry Forman were alive today, he would certainly confirm that.

Do you think that collectors had never gone to the Cash room and asked to look thru coins for the best ones? There may have been gratuities there, as well.

Can the USG now try to go after all of the coins that were not given out in change? I certainly hope not, because many of the coins that I love would be subject to seizure.

I am 100% certain that Izzy did not steal the coins, nor did McCann steal the coins (in 1933). Can you imagine a jeweler stealing from the US Mint?
McCann did what others before him and after him have done. Certainly not as intended, but never before prosecuted.

These are genuine US coins and properly belong in numismatic collections, as does the 64-D $, aluminum cent and what ever was produced that ties into numismatics.

The monetization nonsense will remain that forever, nonsense!

I hope that Mr. Berke finds material that is suitable for an appeal, as it was certain to go to appeal, almost certainly, no matter who won.

Numisgold

Numisgold
07-22-2011, 10:06 PM
Yes they were stolen!

Plain and simple. 1933 double eagles were never officially released into circulation, therefore as an official coin they do not exist per se.

Regardless of what happened to get these coins out of the mint, they officially do not exist and therefore one cannot own these particular coins.

Read the below link that was published this week by Greg Reynolds, a leading numismatic journalist. It sums up the poor record keeping of the mint from the 1790's right to the 1930's. The mint consistently allowed cashier window trades where collectors or citizens would trade old coins for new. These transaction were rarely recorded, and for good reason as it didn't matter. The mint also did not keep track of transactions when unusual coins like patterns were let out. For instance FDR's 1933 Treasury Secretary William Woodin was a famous pattern collector before he became SOT. In 1910 he traded the govt 2 very rare 1877 $50 patterns for a trunkload of lesser, but still rare patterns. He was even said to have shown dealer Nagy in the 1930's five 1933 $20 Saints that he owned! Those 1933 Saints were publically collected and traded for nearly a decade with full knowledge of senior mint personnel. But in the 1940's the Feds went on a tear to confiscate them. 1933 $10 Indians were never officially released either, yet about 20 of those survive today and at least for now are considered legal to own. Some were recorded as being exchanged at the mint's cashier window, but most were not. Since most 1933 $10 Indians were melted can the owners of those 20 or so coins show paperwork that they were legally exchanged....4 did so but can they prove it today? Those rare 1933 $10Indians should be next on the confiscation train as they have a history no different than the 1933 $10's. How the heck did those few 1933 $10's make it to the cashier's window for "legal" exchange when no 1933 $20's did? And most of the $20's were struck well before FDR's EO so they were available to the cashier.

This trial was much more about the govt having chased after the 1933 Saints in the 1940's, and by inference they "must" have been illegal to own. Have to wonder what SOT Woodin was doing with 5 of them? Maybe he got his from Izzy as well....:D. Too bad Woodin died in 1934 as he was a strong advocate for the collector who insisted that collector gold coins be exempt from the April 1933 EO. In any case, it seems like the govt should go after that trunkfull of patterns Woodin received in 1910 because there was never a release order from the mint authorizing the sale. Therefore they were stolen. There were over a thousand patterns in that trunk! Of course one would have to wonder how SOT Woodin ever got those pair of ultra rare $50 Unions that even the Smithsonian didn't have. And even though they were "stolen" per the new definition, the Smithsonian/US Mint gladly forked over a trunk of rare patterns to get those 2 $50's back. Interesting since no mint officials considered those stolen! One can be sure there was no order to authorize the release of those 2 rare $50's at any time either to circulation or to a govt official or high end collector.

http://www.coinweek.com/news/featured-news/coin-rarities-related-topics-the-fate-of-ten-switt-langbord-1933-double-eagles-20-gold-coins/

The lawyer for the Langbords has filed a motion to act on an earlier request for the judge to set aside the jury verdict and rule on the case before the defense was presented. According to Berke the evidence the govt presented was inadequate to prove the coins were stolen. The jury was apparently hung up on Izzy's reputation, the fact that the mint's cashier was a drunk, and that the govt was hell bent in the 1940's to recover all these $20's whether right or wrong. If the jury instead concentrated on the mint's usual practices from the 1800's to 1933, it would be clear there was little concern for keeping the 1933's separate, or even tracking dates. No mint or govt officials cared in 1933 with a monetary crisis going down. They struck 300,000 coins even before FDR's illegal order came out. One can be sure that the mint was not keeping close tabs on those 445,000 Saints dated 1933 from the time they were struck until the time they were melted. All they cared about was that 445,000 ounces of $20 gold coins got melted. I found it humorous that dealer QDB recalled stories of mint vaults with $20's strewn about the floor. Yeah, some record keeping system.

The numismatic world is now aware that billions of dollars worth of coins they own are now technically considered "stolen property" and illegal to own because their exists no formal mint order authorizing their release. Anyone here who owns a 1856 FE cent better think twice as they were not officially released. The same can probably be said for many gold and silver coins placed into circulation over decades. It's unlikely the mint has copies of official orders authorizing their release. When in doubt...confiscate.

Numisgold

Twostaff
07-23-2011, 04:51 PM
The mint did not have a program where employees could exchange coins! The bags were marked for example "500 Double Eagles" and if a mint worker took a new coin and replaced it with last years, no one knew or cared, that doesn't mean it was legitimate or legal. The fact that these coins were rescinded and never released to the public officially means ANYONE who possesses one outside the mint has obtained it ILLEGALLY! There is no other answer. As much as I'd love individual numismatists to own these coins that is the law. If you don't like it change it! And one of the best ways to change a law is to challenge it in court. the best way for the Langbords to do that would have been to announce they had the coins and forced the US govt to come seize them with a warrant.

And I think a nation needs to demonstrate they have authority over their own coinage and you just cant take steal it from the mint and get away with it, today or 75 years ago!