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SilverMiner
07-24-2011, 11:14 AM
From the US Treasury site:

Question: I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

Answer: The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

I guess $100 bills / $50 bills are not money because they can be refused as payement by any buisness, just like silver.

johndaniels
07-24-2011, 11:39 AM
From the US Treasury site:

Question: I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

Answer: The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

I guess $100 bills / $50 bills are note money because they can be refused as payement by any buisness, just like silver.

Thank god for casinos!

AnotherDave
07-24-2011, 12:23 PM
From the US Treasury site:

Question: I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

Answer: The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

I guess $100 bills / $50 bills are not money because they can be refused as payement by any buisness, just like silver.

Put this together with the definitions of US Dollar and Federal Reserve Note, and you just might have something dangerous to talk about.

.

SilverSurfer25
07-24-2011, 12:38 PM
Youre drawing conclusions where you want to see them.

Silver (most) is not legal tender, why would a business accept it?

FRN are legal tender, but that doesnt mean a business must accept large denominations, or an equal face value in cents.

I dont see the relationship that youre suggesting

SilverMiner
07-24-2011, 12:55 PM
Youre drawing conclusions where you want to see them.

Silver (most) is not legal tender, why would a business accept it?

FRN are legal tender, but that doesnt mean a business must accept large denominations, or an equal face value in cents.

I dont see the relationship that youre suggesting

I don't think I want to go around with you on this again. See the Silver is not money thread. Your definitions require acceptance of some arbitrary generalities which cannot be quantified. "Sometimes", "Generally", etc.

I ascert that silver is money or it's not. Fiat is money or it's not. If either are accepted as a form of payment, and either can be refused as a form of payment then both can be said to be money with equal veracity. I don't agree they must further be defined by vague quantative terms "sometimes" and "generally" to be true.

Ryanferr
07-24-2011, 01:03 PM
I think you can apply the same logic to an ounce of gold. A 1 oz gold coin is worth ~$1600. Most places would not be able to make change for an ounce of gold and would not want the risk of having items of such value kept in registers due to theft. Therefore they would deny acceptance of an 1 oz gold coin. Instead, they would ask you pay in a fractional form. A 40% coin, a 1/10 gold coin, etc. The same thing applies with the $100 bill. They can deny the usage of a $100 bill and instead ask for "fractional" bills, like a $5, $10, $20, etc.

srvegas
07-24-2011, 01:04 PM
Thank God my hooker gladly excepts $100 bills.

SilverMiner
07-24-2011, 01:11 PM
Thank God my hooker gladly excepts $100 bills.

She might prefer silver coins, anti-bacterial properties are a bonus. :D

AnotherDave
07-24-2011, 01:17 PM
We could argue the term "legal tender" back and forth, or we could, you know, look it up in a legal dictionary. Mine is Black's Revised Fourth, maybe you have a more current edition.

It says,... nothing! The term is undefined.

In other words, it is a bullshit term like "quantitative easing" and "reserve currency" coined to distract you from recognizing what is going on.They've been blowing smoke up you ass for so long you don't don't know between it and Shinola. So stop spreading it around!

.

HomerJ
07-24-2011, 01:18 PM
Silver or gold are not legal tender but currency minted from them is.
A government can theoretically mint a 5$ gold coin that contains 1 ounce of gold and it would worth 5$ at Taco Bell.

SilverMiner
07-24-2011, 01:43 PM
There are a growing number of bussinesses that refuse all cash.

American Airlines
Apple Stores
Car Rental Agencies.
Restaurants

The point he's making is:
One's refusal to accept an object as a medium of exchange does not preclude it from be included in the definition of money.

Nail ====> Head

Thanks, I didn't think I was beeing too obtuse.

BOiPiNOi604
07-24-2011, 02:16 PM
Yea really
I mean for a business not to accept $100 would be undermining the US currency..

zostar
07-24-2011, 07:10 PM
good post,

I would prefer Silver over any Frn fiat bills 10 or 100 don't matter.

The Frns are based of unconstitutional merits, based on a debt system
that we are witnessing which is breaking down a monetary system which is
global. It's only purpose is for profit of a select group,
leaving the rest of society as slaves to this scheme.

Ryanferr
07-24-2011, 07:15 PM
There are a growing number of bussinesses that refuse all cash.

American Airlines
Apple Stores
Car Rental Agencies.
Restaurants

The point he's making is:
One's refusal to accept an object as a medium of exchange does not preclude it from be included in the definition of money.

But they all still accept dollars, hence why dollars are money.

insidedealer
07-24-2011, 07:31 PM
These threads have been never-ending since I became a member years ago.
I started out simple(I thought) trying to explain the difference between coinage and money. Years later and many still don't see the simple difference. It's been an ongoing irritant. Now $100 bill as money, or not. What about a Mastercard as money, or not?
.
Since I've found that many can't understand the simple coinage issue, there's no shot imo in trying to discuss a little bit more complex issues like fiat or cc as money. gl trying.

4AMJAVA
07-24-2011, 08:20 PM
You guys are conflating or confusing "legal tender" with "money" and "currency" and probably "debts".

If you OWE $100 to someone - either a government agency, your neighbor, your auto mechanic, etc - and you present them with a $100 bill, guess what they have to take it. Well, they don't HAVE to take it, it's just that, then you don't owe them $100 anymore. That's black letter law.

If I run a business however, or am selling my car, I get to set the terms. "Only Cash Accepted.". "No Checks" "Credit Cards Only".

Hope this helps.

SilverSlug
07-24-2011, 08:42 PM
I thought the thing that was funny about the governments response to that question was how they answered by saying its legal for all public debt...and then going on to talking about busines debt. But the license bureau doesnt accept cash. At least the one in my town (Ohio) . Why?

bottle collector
07-24-2011, 08:47 PM
I thought the thing that was funny about the governments response to that question was how they answered by saying its legal for all public debt...and then going on to talking about busines debt. But the license bureau doesnt accept cash. At least the one in my town (Ohio) . Why?

Mine does not accept cash either. I think it is because cash "gets lost"

4AMJAVA
07-24-2011, 09:16 PM
Yes - "they" are making it difficult - no argument there. And am not suggesting you make yourself a target for their wrath.

But I guarantee that if you really want to be a thorn in their side and make a scene, you will find they will grudgingly accept cash payment for taxes aka "fees" and registration and so on. They might not even realize they are required to unless you press the issue. Again not saying you should try this, but them's the facts.

SilverMiner
07-24-2011, 11:25 PM
Yes - "they" are making it difficult - no argument there. And am not suggesting you make yourself a target for their wrath.

But I guarantee that if you really want to be a thorn in their side and make a scene, you will find they will grudgingly accept cash payment for taxes aka "fees" and registration and so on. They might not even realize they are required to unless you press the issue. Again not saying you should try this, but them's the facts.

I'd like to see someone force this issue and see what happens.

AnotherDave
07-24-2011, 11:32 PM
I'd like to see someone force this issue and see what happens.

What? That someone is compelled to accept a TENDER?

You do that, and tell me how it turns out.

.

SilverMiner
07-24-2011, 11:35 PM
What? That someone is compelled to accept a TENDER?

You do that, and tell me how it turns out.

.

Yes, that's what Im saying, I want to see the poster force the issue and see how it turns out.

New2PM
07-25-2011, 05:54 AM
.... But the license bureau doesnt accept cash. At least the one in my town (Ohio) . Why?

I'm in Ohio and mine doesn't accept checks. Just last week I paid nearly $500 in fees and sales taxes with cash.

4AMJAVA
07-25-2011, 06:43 AM
In my AO they accept checks for property tax as well as cash, but they also will accept CC - except they make the taxpayer eat the merchants agreement fees. However they really don't want people to pay in cash, for a number of reasons. It can invite theft or robbery, embezzlement, is a hassle, etc. To me though, it's sort of disingenuous for them to suggest paying online but charging a "fee" to do so.

4AMJAVA
07-25-2011, 06:48 AM
When you say "dollars" what do you mean?
Keyboard entries or physical cash in the hand?

What if I don't have a bank account, or a credit card?

Is the dollar in my hand "money" if it is not accepted as a medium of exchange?

Try buying an item from an Apple Store with a dollar bill.
Try renting a car with cash in hand.

If silver is accepted as a medium of exchange in a particular transaction then, by definition, it is money.

By applying the logic with which you exclude silver, if a dollar bill is refused in a transaction, dollars are not money.

Apple stores don't accept Swiss Francs nor Wampum, either. I suppose they wouldn't let you pay for their wares in cash because it's their call. Swiss Francs are still money, however. See the difference? You don't owe Apple money before you walk in the store, there is no debt.

4AMJAVA
07-25-2011, 06:54 AM
I'd like to see someone force this issue and see what happens.

It's more trouble than it's worth, probably, because it might entail getting an attorney. In our county, they will accept cash in person. Many people have an Escrow account for taxes and insurance anyway, but for those who want to pay cash, they can.

Again the reason is because it's a _debt_; if you try to settle and they refuse, then for all practical purposes the debt is no longer owed. THAT is why they will take cash, when pressed.

robfromsalem
07-25-2011, 08:01 AM
I've never had a place refuse cash, I ussually use my debit card, but if I've got cash I just tell them I don't have a credit card or bank account and they bend.

The car rental place here takes cash too, but do require a credit/debit card for a deposit in case I smash up their car. I pay for the actual rental cost in cash and the deposit goes back in my bank when I get back.

I've offered to accept silver as payment but had no takers so far. Let the g men come get me, it's no different than any other barter afaik

AgStreak
07-25-2011, 08:10 AM
Missouri lists only silver as a legal tender, there is no mention of FRNs in the Revised Statutes of Missouri (RSMo)

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C400-499/4080000010.HTM

The reason is that the Missouri Constitution only allows silver or gold coins minted by the US Government as legal tender, same as the federal constitution. As noted above, private business can accept anything it chooses, even FRNs. Money owed to the State is subject to that State's legal tender laws. Hence, property tax owed to a State can be challenged on the basis that compliance with the property tax statute would violate RSMo 408.010 (see link above), and since you can't comply with one without violating the other, they leave you alone

Basically, the format of the letter is: I'm a law abiding citizen that wants to follow the law, I seek the advice of the State in a matter that I see as complying with one section of RSMo, but violating another. As I don't know which law to break, please advise on a course of action.

A small victory, but you take them where you can get them.

Ryanferr
07-25-2011, 08:30 AM
When you say "dollars" what do you mean?
Keyboard entries or physical cash in the hand?

What if I don't have a bank account, or a credit card?

Is the dollar in my hand "money" if it is not accepted as a medium of exchange?

Try buying an item from an Apple Store with a dollar bill.
Try renting a car with cash in hand.

If silver is accepted as a medium of exchange in a particular transaction then, by definition, it is money.

By applying the logic with which you exclude silver, if a dollar bill is refused in a transaction, dollars are not money.

That is a good point. I will have to think about it!

AnotherDave
07-25-2011, 09:03 AM
Missouri lists only silver as a legal tender, there is no mention of FRNs in the Revised Statutes of Missouri (RSMo)

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C400-499/4080000010.HTM

The reason is that the Missouri Constitution only allows silver or gold coins minted by the US Government as legal tender, same as the federal constitution. As noted above, private business can accept anything it chooses, even FRNs. Money owed to the State is subject to that State's legal tender laws. Hence, property tax owed to a State can be challenged on the basis that compliance with the property tax statute would violate RSMo 408.010 (see link above), and since you can't comply with one without violating the other, they leave you alone

Basically, the format of the letter is: I'm a law abiding citizen that wants to follow the law, I seek the advice of the State in a matter that I see as complying with one section of RSMo, but violating another. As I don't know which law to break, please advise on a course of action.

A small victory, but you take them where you can get them.

It's a big victory. You've illustrated some huge flaws in your state's carefully staged magic show.

You've presented yourself as a citizen, not a resident. A citizen is entitled to the protection of the state, a resident not so much. Which term do they use on all state tax documents?

You've cited state law, not federal. Always quote state law when you are in the state's jurisdiction. If you bring in federal law, the 14th amendment, or Title 42, they will assume that you are merely a resident under federal protection, NOT one of their citizens. If you think being a US corporate "person" is a good thing, then maybe you should RTFM http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/amdt14toc_user.html.

You cited law, not your own misguided opinion, and you did it in three paragraphs or less. Not a 50-page manifesto.

And most importantly, you put your state a dilemma that they could not solve. Ask pointed questions and make THEM do the work! They'll pick on someone easier next time.

Good work!

.

AnotherDave
07-25-2011, 09:07 AM
When you say "dollars" what do you mean? ...




That is a good point. I will have to think about it!



I hope this is the part you will be thinking about. Researching law, not what "everybody knows".

.

AgStreak
07-25-2011, 09:20 AM
It's a big victory. You've illustrated some huge flaws in your state's carefully staged magic show...

Interestingly, when I applied the same argument to State income tax, they ended up getting their money by appealing to the Feds (basically they intercepted a portion of my Federal return). Also, it never gets on the record (through a court decision). I call it a "retreat to neutral corners" victory. I ask a question they can't answer and they pretend they didn't hear it and leave me alone.

RoadLizard
07-25-2011, 09:30 AM
Please send any hundred dollar bills you dont want to me. PM for mailing address. Hehehehehe ;)

AnotherDave
07-25-2011, 09:45 AM
Interestingly, when I applied the same argument to State income tax, they ended up getting their money by appealing to the Feds (basically they intercepted a portion of my Federal return). Also, it never gets on the record (through a court decision). I call it a "retreat to neutral corners" victory. I ask a question they can't answer and they pretend they didn't hear it and leave me alone.

Different can of worms. Ask this in the General Discussion group, and we'll see what to make of it.

.

Silver Dog
07-25-2011, 10:00 AM
good post,

I would prefer Silver over any Frn fiat bills 10 or 100 don't matter.

The Frns are based of unconstitutional merits, based on a debt system
that we are witnessing which is breaking down a monetary system which is
global. It's only purpose is for profit of a select group,
leaving the rest of society as slaves to this scheme.

This is what matters to me, we are being taken, right before our eyes, but in an underhanded and immoral way, no question. Trouble is that most agree to this system, so it remains in place. This is the reason I stack. Hopefully PMs will preserve my wealth when the fiat debacle comes crumbling down. Fiat will come crumbling down as sure as the sun rises and sets daily.