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wingmead
08-09-2011, 03:21 PM
OK... I've been around here for a few years now...could someone explain in one or two simple sentences what the "JP Morgan" manipulation conspiracy theory is? :confused:

I'm just a simple stacker...buy, stack, stash, hold...:D

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 03:27 PM
OK... I've been around here for a few years now...could someone explain in one or two simple sentences what the "JP Morgan" manipulation conspiracy theory is? :confused:

I'm just a simple stacker...buy, stack, stash, hold...:D

Which one? There are many out there.

theplantguy
08-09-2011, 03:31 PM
One of the theories that was posted here a while back was that JPM controlled Apmex. The reason this poster believed that was because Apmex banked at Chase. There is no end of this stuff.

TwoBitWisdom
08-09-2011, 03:40 PM
OK... I've been around here for a few years now...could someone explain in one or two simple sentences what the "JP Morgan" manipulation conspiracy theory is? :confused:

I'm just a simple stacker...buy, stack, stash, hold...:D

It's not a theory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSLIDJ3HZHA

wingmead
08-09-2011, 04:45 PM
Sorry...I didn't want to waste 21 minutes listening to that guy droooooool on...:D Just looking for the simple answer. :)

Johnnyzed
08-09-2011, 04:48 PM
Here is one of the biggest theory out there...enjoy.

http://www.roadtoroota.com/public/361.cfm?awt_l=5Sgfw&awt_m=3iThhPJia_AZ85B

Randall Maxwell
08-09-2011, 05:06 PM
In 1913 the Federal Reserve Bank was started. We do not know what individuals own that bank. They are above our laws and taxes. Rothschild's from England are a big player. JP Morgan was allowed to play the banking game Rothchilds money.

6 months before JFK died he signed into law Bill 111110 which would have allowed the government again to start printing its own money. Mysteriously he was murdered and LBJ immediately signed that bill out of law. The people who most benefited from the elimination of JFK was the Federal Reserve Secret Bankers.

Many wars have been encouraged with free flowing monies from powerful bankers. Often they would provide funds for both sides of the battlefield - for it always was about their $30 pieces of silver.

Those bankers who own the Federal Reserve Bank (JPM probably one) are above the laws of this nation, and lend out monies, they print out, with interest to our government and people. To keep Americans dependent upon currency, for years the silver market has been flooded by monies from JPM - astonishing amounts of silver -that is a fact! The less currency gold or silver were worth the more the world was depenent upon the Federal REserve Bankers - the richer they get.

The USA government used to own in reserve 10% of the worlds silver - now the government has none. Somehow it seems that money was mysteriously transferred over to JPM.

Now that the bankers have bleed the world dry, and flooded the world with more and more paper, they are turning their eyes back to gold (how much gold would you buy if you could print trillions of paper money?) The bankers, to keep on bleeding the world dry, will some day need to reboot, and they recognize golds value. Simply stated there is more gold in the world today.. bankers are starting with our gold. Don't worry they will try to get your silver too. I predict that government will again someday find the need to confiscate precious metals to pay back the poor FED.

Watch JPM... they predicted gold to be up to $2500 by the end of the year- imagine that (yes they will get their share). When they recognize its time to turn to silver they will be making similar predictions about it. You can bet they will be the first out of the fire exit of cheap silver. So if you want to know when silver will make its move - watch JPM!

Still an unbeliever? We will all be believers when we start using USA $100 bills as wallpaper.

theplantguy
08-09-2011, 05:08 PM
It's interesting how very few seem to actually be able to articulate it themselves. They have to use someone's video or cartoon bears.

Atlas Shrugged
08-09-2011, 05:11 PM
No matter what anyone says about JPM, CNBS is talking about the "machines" taking over the market. Whether JPM and HSBC is behind this, I don't know. I do know that the HFT are real.

Skynet is active in the market.

The machines created HUGE volatility. I took all my stops off since I am looking out to January. It appears to me that the market is in it's death throes. Can you hear the rattle?

Atlas Shrugged
08-09-2011, 05:14 PM
Again another lie. I have never ever said I don't believe in manipulation.

That is true. What are your thoughts on HFT..skynet...the wall street machines?

theplantguy
08-09-2011, 05:17 PM
That is true. What are your thoughts on HFT..skynet...the wall street machines?

As long as they are legal, fine. They don't affect me and I do just fine.

coindog
08-09-2011, 05:20 PM
That is true. What are your thoughts on HFT..skynet...the wall street machines?

is this another new one. the HFT programs are sponsered by JPM and HSBC? since most every big trading outfit uses them does that mean JPM and HSBC are in charge of the world. Bwaaahaha

March5th2011
08-09-2011, 05:25 PM
Again another lie. I have never ever said I don't believe in manipulation.


After the nonsense that we witnessed during the last hour of the stock market today, only a politician could deny manipulation.

Atlas Shrugged
08-09-2011, 05:27 PM
is this another new one. the HFT programs are sponsered by JPM and HSBC? since most every big trading outfit uses them does that mean JPM and HSBC are in charge of the world. Bwaaahaha

I never said the machines were owned by JPM and HSBC. I asked plant what he thought of them. :rolleyes:

ARCHANGEL
08-09-2011, 05:27 PM
Plant Guy


Your constant sarcastic remarks are getting noticed and you should rethink
how you respond to others.

fraxinus
08-09-2011, 05:35 PM
It's a big world out there, and most of it tries hard to protect its markets from the taint of corruption. There was no stated reason for JP Morgan's recent resignation from the London Metals Exchange, but the company's shrinking reach, means that any efforts at market manipulation will weaken the standing of only the US markets.

TheLegendaryJP
08-09-2011, 05:40 PM
What I find telling is how every president or candidate that was against the bank either was assasinated or didn't win.

That is fact! ... even an English King ta boot!

SWCroaker
08-09-2011, 06:18 PM
If I take a stab at "one or two simple sentences", will you keep TPG from labeling me "inarticulate"?

Never mind.

Conspiracies exist. Their nature is that the few who see underneath the cloak are few, and being few in number are therefore counter to the mainstream. In our modern age of conforming group think, it is easy to slander and discredit those who are different just because they are different. So one of the best ways to debunk and discredit a conspiracy is to first make sure that everyone *thinks* of it as a conspiracy. Step two is to then find the most outrageous wild-eyed freaky haired stuttering supporter of the conspiracy and make sure that he gets a microphone and lots of air time.


My take, in short: For JPM (and a few other bullion banks), Ag is a kiddie-pool sized commodity market. Look at *any* similar monopoly dominated market, and you'll find that the dominant player has the ability to set the price wherever they wish. Low prices, by themselves, are boring and don't make the controlling party much money. Action is where it is at, action coupled with foreknowledge of the upcoming move.

The bullion banks have had a bee-you-tee-full fleecing operation in place for decades. They can ramp the price UP quickly enough to entice small specs into buying (hey momos, right this way!), only to stick it to them by crashing the price and holding it down (for some reason, often around around op-ex). Both moves cost the BB initial seed money when they initiate a ramp or cascade, but the bulk of the movement is accomplished by the momo players panicking en masse when the movement gets serious. Very easy to do in a market where almost every player employs leverage. Waiting at the top/bottom of the induced runs are the BBs; they make money on the way UP, AND the way DOWN. (Any foreknowledge of where a market is going allows you to place what will be winning bets in that market, as well as related markets (think options, equities, CDS etc)). Being able to move the price means foreknowledge of where things are going means profit. Plain and simple.

Just as in any fleecing operation, shearing the sheep too often makes for sick sheep. So the disgusted now-poor marks who give up on the Ag market have to periodically be replaced by new marks with new zeal and new money. That requires price spikes large enough to attract attention, but not so large as to make Ag more than the lovely kiddie pool that it is. It is to the BB's benefit to keep the long term price of Ag low, as if it gets too pricey they start to lose the ability to easily yank things where they want them. The long term objective is to just periodically harvest money from fools; the more obvious it is that Ag is of course due to rise/fall, the more money to be made by forcing the small market to run counter to the obvious.

The regulation of the Ag market has long since been captured by the BBs, who have the CFTC in their pocket and employee many ex-CFTC individuals who "graduate" to work for the same folks they used to oversee. (Not to mention the BBs hold major positions in the actual ownership of the exchange). Evidence of the regulatory capture is the recurring "investigations" into Ag manipulation that take years, and produce only a mumbling excuse of evasion. Furthermore, the long term price repressing nature of the fleecing operation dovetails nicely with unofficial government desires, who view high PM prices as a negative critique on their monetary policies (printing and spending, printing and spending).

As for JPM in particular, they are one of the BBs, and inherited the Lehman short position in Ag to add to their own ridiculously large one. There is some speculation that China, via HSBC, has been playing JPM as a fool in recent years, in revenge for a crap load of financial "innovation" commodities deals that JPM allegedly tricked China into backing. Speculation is that China has been putting the screws to JPM by being the real party gradually draining the COMEX inventory supplies, while US investors think it is all JPM's doing.


Facts that muddy the waters:

COMEX grew out of an Agricultural background. They were never really interested in physical, just the expanded trading opportunities of offering contract access based on silver. Most industrial players have direct deals with producers; most of the world's investment demand for Ag is handled by London. So all of the COMEX players (BBs, specs, commercials, producers) really ARE in the market just for the paper, and they see nothing wrong with that.
The pricing of COMEX contracts means that the associated spot price is in fact set by a handful of exclusive players; most of the millions of small individual investors have little or no idea that they exert almost no price influence when they buy hold or sell non-COMEX Ag related issues.
It is not uncommon for COMEX to trade paper oz equivalent to world annual Ag production every few days. This is a symptom of a price setting mechanism that is seriously broken, where the intended market players (producers and consumers) get trampled by the elephants with big wallets running wild in the casino. Thus many of the producers and consumers work direct deals *outside* of COMEX.
Two sources of whale players, BBs and Government interests, share a similar goal of an ongoing low price. China may be interested in sneaking away with all of the bullion COMEX has, and leaving JPM holding the bag for a change, but they want to do so in a way that doesn't make Ag pricey for their industrial customers back home.



A short version of the above: corruption cheating and conspiracy are found wherever you find power or money, or both. JPM and silver are but one glaring example of that truism. The process of regulatory capture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture) is very much in evidence; just as with the SEC, FDIC, Congress, TSA and others, the policing agencies actions align with protecting the industry players, not the consumers they feed on.

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 06:22 PM
As I have said multiple times, there is a big difference between certain people trading big and trying to make a profit, and silver being purposely and specifically targeted by an international fraternity of bankers bent on keeping silver down so fiat can reign supreme and out wealth can be perpetually stolen. Why they chose silver and not gold, oil, gasoline, etc is still not really answered. Some people blame margin hikes for manipulating prices down despite those being determined by equations that measure volatility. Margins are hiked all the time in all markets. Just last week the S&P and Swiss Franc had margin increases. Coincidentally silver's margin hikes were issued when its volatility index was spiking. Moreover silver has doubled multiple times over the past year and is constantly broadcasted as the best performing commodity of the past 10 years. If someone is trying to keep prices down, they basically suck at it.

Has anyone else notice the HFT theories didnt start coming out until that one video was posted here? HFT is a newer type of technology that many do in fact think are ruining the markets, but they are present everywhere and in all markets. I hate to break it to some people, but silver is nothing special in this regard. No one is gunning for you, no one wants your blood, no one is after you.

Either way, the conspiracy theories all range to any extreme. Some people post as if JPM is behind every crime that was ever committed, others say JPM and the Fed have some secret deal worked out, others just think HFT machines give them an advantage in trading. I will let you sift through them all and hopefully use common sense to determine which theories are more practical than the others. Keep in mind a lot of these assume people have knowledge about JPM's daily trading activities and what the Fed has been doing and what "deals" they have been entering into. Is there crime in the world? Yes. Are there bad people out there? Yes. Is there corruption? Sure. Is all of this directed at the kitco silver forums and POS 24/7? Probably not.

The Enigma
08-09-2011, 06:29 PM
Plant Guy


Your constant sarcastic remarks are getting noticed and you should rethink
how you respond to others.

hey man... we need plant guy's sarcastic and demeaning comments to offset the majority of the gold bugs constant ramping. There always have to be 2 sides to an argument :D

just that plant guy chooses to deny. Just because he ahs a different view than a lot of people doesnt make him wrong.

nor does it make him right.

jbsilver
08-09-2011, 06:34 PM
hey man... we need plant guy's sarcastic and demeaning comments to offset the majority of the gold bugs constant ramping.

Who is "we" ? :rolleyes:

Atlas Shrugged
08-09-2011, 06:37 PM
As I have said multiple times, there is a big difference between certain people trading big and trying to make a profit, and silver being purposely and specifically targeted by an international fraternity of bankers bent on keeping silver down so fiat can reign supreme and out wealth can be perpetually stolen. Why they chose silver and not gold, oil, gasoline, etc is still not really answered. Moreover silver has doubled multiple times over the past year and is constantly broadcasted as the best performing commodity of the past 10 years. If someone is trying to keep prices down, they basically suck at it.

Has anyone else notice the HFT theories didnt start coming out until that one video was posted here? HFT is a newer type of technology that most do in fact are ruining the markets, but they are present everywhere and in all markets. I hate to break it to some people, but silver is nothing special in this regard. No one is gunning for you, no one wants your blood, no one is after you.

Either way, the conspiracy theories all range to any extreme. Some people post as if JPM is behind every crime that was ever committed, others say JPM and the Fed have some secret deal worked out, others just think HFT machines give them an advantage in trading. I will let you sift through them all and hopefully use common sense to determine which theories are more practical than the others. Keep in mind a lot of these assume people have knowledge about JPM's daily trading activities and what the Fed has been doing and what "deals" they have been entering into. Is there crime in the world? Yes. Are there bad people out there? Yes. Is there corruption? Sure. Is all of this directed at the kitco silver forums and POS 24/7? Probably not.

HFT's are under investigation right now and it came out through zero hedge, not KITCO. This is a story that was denied initially. No one ever said it is just silver, but all markets are being manipulated.

If you can manipulate all markets, you can certainly manipulate the smallest commodity market on the planet.

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 06:40 PM
HFT's are under investigation right now and it came out through zero hedge, not KITCO. This is a story that was denied initially. No one ever said it is just silver, but all markets are being manipulated.

If you can manipulate all markets, you can certainly manipulate the smallest commodity market on the planet.

Yeah, HTF will be a big issue for officials and exchanges to rule on in the near future. Again, living in unprecedented times!

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 06:41 PM
Notice how they always send you to a youtube video or some 3rd rate nutjob conspiracy theroist website? I have never once seen a link that takes me to a reputable news source where any proof of manipulation is laid out. I also notice the manipulation talk completely stops around here on any given day that silver is in the green.

Johnnyzed
08-09-2011, 06:43 PM
Notice how they always send you to a youtube video or some 3rd rate nutjob conspiracy theroist website? I have never once seen a link that takes me to a reputable news source where any proof of manipulation is laid out. I also notice the manipulation talk completely stops around here on any given day that silver is in the green.

Because all the sites your consider "reliable" are controlled by TPTB?

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 06:45 PM
Because all the sites your consider "reliable" are controlled by TPTB?

Ah, "TPTB". Those guys and the "man" keeping everyone down. RISE UP! Who the heck are TPTB?

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 06:49 PM
Because all the sites your consider "reliable" are controlled by TPTB?

I guess in all JPM's mighty power they can control the entire world communication network. Too bad they couldn't get a wrap on Youtube and alexjones.com. No idea who the TPTB is either. :confused:

Johnnyzed
08-09-2011, 06:51 PM
Ah, "TPTB". Those guys and the "man" keeping everyone down. RISE UP! Who the heck are TPTB?

I was just answering his question. And I will answer yours as well...those not us! LoL.

All kidding aside, there is much circumstantial evidence that point to a small group of individuals that are in control of well, everything. Some have been bold enough to make statements to that effect, but is there any "official" documentation that is ironclad proof? Not that I can point to.

Just like those that believe in certain conspiracies, no amount of "evidence" will change their mind, nor people who don't believe in the conspiracies will accept any evidence that point to a conspiracy.

However, it is fun to try and change each others minds.

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 06:53 PM
I was just answering his question. And I will answer yours as well...those not us! LoL.

All kidding aside, there is much circumstantial evidence that point to a small group of individuals that are in control of well, everything. Some have been bold enough to make statements to that effect, but is there any "official" documentation that is ironclad proof? Not that I can point to.

Just like those that believe in certain conspiracies, no amount of "evidence" will change their mind, nor people who don't believe in the conspiracies will accept any evidence that point to a conspiracy.

However, it is fun to try and change each others minds.

Dont worry, I meant my comment in jest :D . Last good conspiracy I heard about small groups controlling everything was about how the Jews controlled and were behind basically every company and event in history. I was surprised to find some people really really believe it.

Johnnyzed
08-09-2011, 06:55 PM
I guess in all JPM's mighty power they can control the entire world communication network. Too bad they couldn't get a wrap on Youtube and alexjones.com. No idea who the TPTB is either. :confused:

Well, those that believe in a "TPTB" would say that JPM is just one of their tools and not necessarily the one setting policy or direction. They would probably also say the the person J.P. Morgan was either part of TPTB or again just one of their tools.

TPTB wouldn't be TPTB if we actually could know or prove who they are...LoL.

Johnnyzed
08-09-2011, 06:58 PM
Dont worry, I meant my comment in jest :D . Last good conspiracy I heard about small groups controlling everything was about how the Jews controlled and were behind basically every company and event in history. I was surprised to find some people really really believe it.

I beleive that you really meant "zionist". Regular jews are just their pawns as well. Not that I believe that myself, but I try and keep myself fairly well versed in many of the conspiracy theories out there.

We all have them (our own conspiracy theories), if we want to be completely honest about it.

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 07:00 PM
I beleive that you really meant "zionist". Regular jews are just their pawns as well. Not that I believe that myself, but I try and keep myself fairly well versed in many of the conspiracy theories out there.

We all have them (our own conspiracy theories), if we want to be completely honest about it.

I'll take your word for it!


TPTB wouldn't be TPTB if we actually could know or prove who they are...LoL.

Lol, dont take this personally because I know you are just answering a question, but basically "TPTB" only exists if we dont know who they are, what they are really up to, and/or what they really want? Sounds PERFECT for a kitco silver conspiracy.

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 07:03 PM
Dont worry, I meant my comment in jest :D . Last good conspiracy I heard about small groups controlling everything was about how the Jews controlled and were behind basically every company and event in history. I was surprised to find some people really really believe it.

Well no denying that considering the size of the Jew population them cats sure do control a lot of stuff. I always just figured it was because of all the religious folk handing over their $$$ because they were taught that these cats were the chosen ones........I guess they must not like the silver. :D

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 07:05 PM
Well, those that believe in a "TPTB" would say that JPM is just one of their tools and not necessarily the one setting policy or direction. They would probably also say the the person J.P. Morgan was either part of TPTB or again just one of their tools.

TPTB wouldn't be TPTB if we actually could know or prove who they are...LoL.

Guess I am just dumb, still no idea what a tptb is....."the people that believe"?

Johnnyzed
08-09-2011, 07:10 PM
I don't really know why a lot of people here concentrate on the silver manipulation theory, other than they say its a small market and easily controlled.

What I really don't understand is how a group of investors who maybe control ~20% of a market (silver) are the ones who determine the price. I don't know how much the LBMA pushed through their exchange, but COMEX pushes such a small percentage of what is mined each year. I mean what does COMEX really push through each year 30M oz? Yearly production is ~800M oz. Amazing.

Johnnyzed
08-09-2011, 07:25 PM
Guess I am just dumb, still no idea what a tptb is....."the people that believe"?

Sorry thought you were asking something else. The Powers That Be (TPTB).

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 07:28 PM
Sorry thought you were asking something else. The Powers That Be (TPTB).

Ah gotcha thanks.

TheorisT
08-09-2011, 08:10 PM
While I'm sure I'll be pigeonholed due to my username here (which has nothing to do with conspiracy theory I assure you), there is always much more to the world than meets the eye. It may not be elaborate conspiracies or stories about jews or commodities manipulation or whatever but if you believe that powerful people to not work together behind the scenes to further their own interests you are just plain naive.

If you want reputable accounts that may raise an eyebrow, do some research into things like the odd details surrounding the Gulf of Tonkin incident or the plan for a false flag terrorist attack called "operation northwoods." Am I claiming the gov is evil and conspiring to harm everyone? Of course not, but not everything is as they would have you believe.

Large, very rich corporations control the media that people claim to be reputable. Much of it is, but there is a reason investigative journalism just isn't what it used to be, especially when it comes to industry. I'm not saying put on your tinfoil hat and scream about reptilian ufos and faking the moon landing - I'm just saying have an open mind about stuff before you write everything off. Saying it's not true cause it's not on CNN (which is basically a twitter interface for old folks these days) is not balanced.

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 08:28 PM
I don't really know why a lot of people here concentrate on the silver manipulation theory, other than they say its a small market and easily controlled.

What I really don't understand is how a group of investors who maybe control ~20% of a market (silver) are the ones who determine the price. I don't know how much the LBMA pushed through their exchange, but COMEX pushes such a small percentage of what is mined each year. I mean what does COMEX really push through each year 30M oz? Yearly production is ~800M oz. Amazing.

The same contracts are traded multiple times on COMEX and a lot of the big players there. Not to mention there are contracts for silver 2 years in the future currently being traded.

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 09:02 PM
While I'm sure I'll be pigeonholed due to my username here (which has nothing to do with conspiracy theory I assure you), there is always much more to the world than meets the eye. It may not be elaborate conspiracies or stories about jews or commodities manipulation or whatever but if you believe that powerful people to not work together behind the scenes to further their own interests you are just plain naive.

If you want reputable accounts that may raise an eyebrow, do some research into things like the odd details surrounding the Gulf of Tonkin incident or the plan for a false flag terrorist attack called "operation northwoods." Am I claiming the gov is evil and conspiring to harm everyone? Of course not, but not everything is as they would have you believe.

Large, very rich corporations control the media that people claim to be reputable. Much of it is, but there is a reason investigative journalism just isn't what it used to be, especially when it comes to industry. I'm not saying put on your tinfoil hat and scream about reptilian ufos and faking the moon landing - I'm just saying have an open mind about stuff before you write everything off. Saying it's not true cause it's not on CNN (which is basically a twitter interface for old folks these days) is not balanced.

I hear what you are saying, no doubt the govt and the filthy rich engage in all types of unethical practices to further their own agendas. I'm not that naive, I served 5 years in our military and spent much of my professional life traveling the world hearing many other perspectives on things. Trust me our goverment is one horrible monster and it does the most terrible and unthinkable things to "promote our agenda", I've seen it first hand. What I find comical is these people that think everything that goes wrong in their life has to be because of some grand conspiracy. Call me dumb but wouldn't you think if JPM was this terrible silver manipulating monster and all this evidence was being stacked against them that they would have stopped by now. Why in the world would they even want to waste their time with such a tiny market? Not that much money for them to make here, just a few days pay. Why if they are so able to control it and bash it down with the push of a button did they let the price rise 300% in the last 2 years?

Stormdancer
08-09-2011, 09:08 PM
I hear what you are saying, no doubt the govt and the filthy rich engage in all types of unethical practices to further their own agendas. I'm not that naive, I served 5 years in our military and spent much of my professional life traveling the world hearing many other perspectives on things. Trust me our goverment is one horrible monster and it does the most terrible and unthinkable things to "promote our agenda", I've seen it first hand. What I find comical is these people that think everything that goes wrong in their life has to be because of some grand conspiracy. Call me dumb but wouldn't you think if JPM was this terrible silver manipulating monster and all this evidence was being stacked against them that they would have stopped by now. Why in the world would they even want to waste their time with such a tiny market? Not that much money for them to make here, just a few days pay. Why if they are so able to control it and bash it down with the push of a button did they let the price rise 300% in the last 2 years?

Your perspective is quite limited. When the price of silver is bashed in a manipulative episode there are corresponding consequences in other markets. It is quite easy to be positioned to profit from those predictable consequences when you know exactly when the price of silver is going down. The money to be made is quite substantial. They don't play single markets in isolation.

insidedealer
08-09-2011, 09:09 PM
JP Morgan has come out with their FUTURE forecast.
They are telling us that they project gold to go $2500, and silver to go to $31.
If this happens to come about, then don't accuse them of not warning us, or giving us good advice.

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 09:12 PM
I hear what you are saying, no doubt the govt and the filthy rich engage in all types of unethical practices to further their own agendas. I'm not that naive, I served 5 years in our military and spent much of my professional life traveling the world hearing many other perspectives on things. Trust me our goverment is one horrible monster and it does the most terrible and unthinkable things to "promote our agenda", I've seen it first hand. What I find comical is these people that think everything that goes wrong in their life has to be because of some grand conspiracy. Call me dumb but wouldn't you think if JPM was this terrible silver manipulating monster and all this evidence was being stacked against them that they would have stopped by now. Why in the world would they even want to waste their time with such a tiny market? Not that much money for them to make here, just a few days pay. Why if they are so able to control it and bash it down with the push of a button did they let the price rise 300% in the last 2 years?

You would also think that since there is currently a lawsuit against them that they would stop "manipulating" as this would only generate new/more evidence to be used against them in court. It's like if you get caught, wouldnt you stop doing the thing that is getting you in trouble? Especially if they know how to detect it now? So far nothing has been proven, but I am not sure of the current status of the law suit in terms of what stage they are now in. If someone has up to date info, feel free to post it.

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 09:24 PM
Yeah with India and China hoarding all the silver they can get I would be more apt to beleive they are the ones manipulating the market if such a thing was happening. Short the paper and buy all the physical you can get your hands on. Obviously if they are accumulating they would want to do it at the lowest prices possible. Not to mention China could absolutely crush JPM at this point.

Atlas Shrugged
08-09-2011, 09:26 PM
You would also think that since there is currently a lawsuit against them that they would stop "manipulating" as this would only generate new/more evidence to be used against them in court. It's like if you get caught, wouldnt you stop doing the thing that is getting you in trouble? Especially if they know how to detect it now? So far nothing has been proven, but I am not sure of the current status of the law suit in terms of what stage they are now in. If someone has up to date info, feel free to post it.

It is like a drug addict that is awaiting trial and it out on bail. They will still do drugs until they are locked up. There is no doubt about the size of shorts in silver. At least they don't lie about that.

Moneychangers will be the death of this world. They really are evil, so they have power behind them, more than you can imagine.

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 09:26 PM
JP Morgan has come out with their FUTURE forecast.
They are telling us that they project gold to go $2500, and silver to go to $31.
If this happens to come about, then don't accuse them of not warning us, or giving us good advice.

Maybe they are just leading the sheeple into gold and hoping to hoard silver at lower prices.

SWCroaker
08-09-2011, 09:38 PM
TPTB may not share a common secret tattoo, meet Friday evenings in a basement, or conduct bizarre initiation rites, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, or that they aren't actively working to extend their control over aspects of your life.

The natural behavior of ANY bureaucracy, be it your local HOA, the CFTC or Congress, is to attempt to grow in size, influence and power. Faceless bureaucrats are all you need look for to find an army that, even with the best of intentions, needs to justify their own existence by an ever increasing set of tasks to manage. And that means rules piled on rules, new staff branches to micromanage minutia.

Size comes from expansion of personnel, and that comes from expansion of duties and responsibilities, and that comes from more and more laws, rules and regulations that need careful monitoring and enforcement. In an environment where funding for new size isn't tied to profitability (such as government which can just tax more), the only real restriction on bloat is a sense of shame, which proves to not be very restricting at all.

Influence comes from connections, and optimal connections are best done with the few people that matter, not the masses who are being regulated and controlled. So for influence bureaucrats naturally seek out and network with well placed fellows in other agencies, and of course sources of influence and funding in the private sector.

Power almost always comes from gradual creep and erosion of individual rights. It starts with a law or rule that everyone thinks is proper. Then an emergency comes along, or some exception bypasses the law and a new, more restrictive layer is added. Then a little one is added, because something offends the majority. Then the process happens so often that we stop asking the masses what they think, and leave the rule making to a super small but elite minority, the bureaucrats that are the elite at the top, TPTB.


Totalitarianism, the collectivist existence where every stinkin thing in your life is dictated for you by your government, all of course for your own good, is the late stage version of a decayed democracy. The hammer of the majority is then used to inflict their will on outvoted minorities (tax the rich! force healthy young people to pay for my old fart Health Care needs! etc.); best characterized as four wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner. We'll arrive there one well intentioned rule at a time, and we'll be as far from the Constitutional Republic that this country was founded to be as we can get. It is the end goal that blind senseless PTB everywhere are instinctively working to achieve. They "conspire together" without even knowing each other's names or existence, because supporting growth of the system is at the core of what they do.

Current estimates have over 50% of households with at least one member receiving direct entitlement benefits from the Federal gov. (That's your spending money). 15% of the nation partakes of the government's food stamp program (SNAP; that's your food). Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are now, thanks to repurchase activities by the Fed, legal owners of over 98% of the existing mortgages in this country (that's your shelter). Over 50% of college students receive one form or another of Federal financing (Sallie Mae says you're hers for life, and that's what you know). 50% of all workers pay $0 in federal taxes (that's your free stuff, unless you're one of the few that actually has your wealth seized so others can get their free stuff). All that remains is to dictate what is proper for you to think, and the nature of how you dress.

insidedealer
08-09-2011, 09:48 PM
Maybe they are just leading the sheeple into gold and hoping to hoard silver at lower prices.Maybe you're right. Or not. We'll see.

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 09:53 PM
Maybe you're right. Or not. We'll see.

Not saying that's what I believe is happening, I was just saying. I don't plan to change anything, I will still continue to stack both.

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 10:00 PM
TPTB may not share a common secret tattoo, meet Friday evenings in a basement, or conduct bizarre initiation rites, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, or that they aren't actively working to extend their control over aspects of your life.

I agree, but without any type of real proof it seems more form fitting of evidence to me. That is just the nature of that side of the argument, you are stuck with the burden of proof for something that is not easily provable. No one expects names and addresses, but I think you know what I mean.

Killver
08-09-2011, 10:16 PM
Sorry...I didn't want to waste 21 minutes listening to that guy droooooool on...:D Just looking for the simple answer. :)

Some things are not simple. Take the 21 minutes and learn- I know this is 2011 when people multitask a dozen things simultaneously, but this has been proven to be very inefficient: none of the tasks are done as well as when taken sequentially. "Old-fashioned"? Nope, just efficient. Would you do 5 minutes of math homework, turn to history for 5 minutes, flail the books back to math, then go to English for 5 minutes? Would not work.

JPMorgan ended up with a vast short position from Bear Stearns, I believe. Then they manipulated the market so that they made billions crashing silver- there were multiple class-action lawsuits against them, now merged into one. A London trader (whistleblower) proved he had advance info from JPM by accurately predicting precise times and prices for silver. People could trade with this advance knowledge after JPM gave some sort of "signals" that it was going to happen. And happen it did! So check out all this, but it's not a simple situation or easy answer. If you want to study silver it may take some time, otherwise you might easily get crushed by events like the one we seem to coming out of right now.

Want a very terse summary on how to win with silver? OK:
"Buy weakness, sell strength".

Good luck.

insidedealer
08-09-2011, 10:29 PM
In following the market since 1976, it's apparant to me that manipulation existed. Especially in the lost decades, I think JPM or other companies took turns profiting from selling option calls to ever hopeful investors, and month after month collecting the millions in proceeds as the option calls expired wothless. I also think they've done the same thing in any and every commodity market they can. But they have been caught with their hand in the silver honey pot, so they'll move on. There's plenty of other markets besides silver.
.
Any manipulation from this point is probably better directed at sovereign nations, the real silent hand using the market makers at their whim. And as far as silver goes, they'll hold the price down for industrial reasons as well as some possible "squelch alternative money" movement. But, it's mainly industrial. If the POS gets too high that effects the price of those electronics being produced in the Far East. That's not good for export revenue for the producing nations.

blitzdude
08-09-2011, 10:33 PM
It's beyond me why anyone who is convinced a market is manipulated would buy into that market. Why sink your $$$ into something if you know they are just going to smack it back down?

Ryanferr
08-09-2011, 10:34 PM
In following the market since 1976, it's apparant to me that manipulation existed. Especially in the lost decades, I think JPM or other companies took turns profiting from selling option calls to ever hopeful investors, and month after month collecting the millions in proceeds as the option calls expired wothless. I also think they've done the same thing in any and every commodity market they can. But they have been caught with their hand in the silver honey pot, so they'll move on. There's plenty of other markets besides silver.
.
Any manipulation from this point is probably better directed at sovereign nations, the real silent hand using the market makers at their whim. And as far as silver goes, they'll hold the price down for industrial reasons as well as some possible "squelch alternative money" movement. But, it's mainly industrial. If the POS gets too high that effects the price of those electronics being produced in the Far East. That's not good for export revenue for the producing nations.

I have to go to bed, but just wanted to jump in one last time to say that last part about industrial reason is a great point!