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ToDaMoonBuffoon
08-26-2011, 01:46 PM
Seems like recently gold goes up a good amount silver barely goes up. Gold goes down silver goes down a good amount. Will it be like this forever? If so I'm in the wrong metal :(

A lot of people say silver has two assets being a store of wealth/potential money, and secondly as an industrial metal. Shouldnt that mean silver goes up if economy booms and silver goes up if economy tanks?! Can someone explain why that doesn't happen?

GloryHole
08-26-2011, 01:53 PM
Gold has always been looked at, as the "Safe Haven" PM ...

You buy Gold for storing wealth ...
You buy Silver, to play with & enjoy your PM ...

There is no substitute for Gold and I believe everyone should own atleast a few ounces. On the other hand, I buy lots of silver to enjoy :)

SilverTongueDevil
08-26-2011, 01:57 PM
Historically dollar for dollar silver has beat gold like a red headed step child..

Copperhead
08-26-2011, 02:03 PM
Seems like recently gold goes up a good amount silver barely goes up. Gold goes down silver goes down a good amount. Will it be like this forever? If so I'm in the wrong metal :(

A lot of people say silver has two assets being a store of wealth/potential money, and secondly as an industrial metal. Shouldnt that mean silver goes up if economy booms and silver goes up if economy tanks?! Can someone explain why that doesn't happen?

Silver is both wealth preservation and an industrial metal. Lately it has been slowed because of the double dip recession threat. But its wealth preservation demand has outweighed such industrial demand threats and thus it continues to climb despite the recent drop in the stock market. It won't be like this forever. Silver will either take off or it will fall. Nothing stays the same.

07Silverado
08-26-2011, 02:03 PM
Seems like recently gold goes up a good amount silver barely goes up. Gold goes down silver goes down a good amount. Will it be like this forever? If so I'm in the wrong metal :(

A lot of people say silver has two assets being a store of wealth/potential money, and secondly as an industrial metal. Shouldnt that mean silver goes up if economy booms and silver goes up if economy tanks?! Can someone explain why that doesn't happen?

Go HERE (http://www.netdania.com/Products/live-streaming-currency-rates-foreign-exchange/real-time-quotes/QuoteList.aspx).

Look at the Y% Change column for gold and silver. Currently silver is beating gold for the year. Gold will catch up from time to time (like last week) then silver tends to spring back and pass it again.

Over the long term look for the G/S ratio to drop significantly, meaning silver to outperform gold.

ToDaMoonBuffoon
08-26-2011, 02:07 PM
Historically dollar for dollar silver has beat gold like a red headed step child..

If I bought 1 oz of silver at 4 bucks 9 or 10 years ago it would be worth $41 now. One oz of gold at 300 about 10 years ago now 1800.


Also guys, a question silver is seen as having volatile swings up and down, but recently it seems gold has been the one with that attitude. Breaks record early in the week only to lose much of it's gains and now has made a healthy fast bounce back. Meanwhile silver is puttering around the same 40-41 level. What gives?! Thanks for your experienced answers.

precession
08-26-2011, 02:09 PM
Silver is a polite gentleman, opening and holding doors for the graceful beauty of gold..

07Silverado
08-26-2011, 02:11 PM
If I bought 1 oz of silver at 4 bucks 9 or 10 years ago it would be worth $41 now. One oz of gold at 300 about 10 years ago now 1800.


Your own numbers answer your question. Just finish the math. :)

Pokermandude
08-26-2011, 02:16 PM
Silver typically has larger swings up and down, resulting in a higher return. Gold typically moves slower, doesn't pull back as much as silver, but also doesn't increase at the same rate.

ToDaMoonBuffoon
08-26-2011, 02:18 PM
One more question how is it that stocks are closing at monthly highs and gold is still going up? I though gold and stock had an inverse relationship?

Copperhead
08-26-2011, 02:24 PM
One more question how is it that stocks are closing at monthly highs and gold is still going up? I though gold and stock had an inverse relationship?

No, not always. Money can be split as to where it is going. When you go to the race track not everyone bets on the same horse.

SoWhatImInsane
08-26-2011, 02:30 PM
If I bought 1 oz of silver at 4 bucks 9 or 10 years ago it would be worth $41 now. One oz of gold at 300 about 10 years ago now 1800.


Also guys, a question silver is seen as having volatile swings up and down, but recently it seems gold has been the one with that attitude. Breaks record early in the week only to lose much of it's gains and now has made a healthy fast bounce back. Meanwhile silver is puttering around the same 40-41 level. What gives?! Thanks for your experienced answers.

all depends on what time you view it from, if you looked at it from silvers peak in 1980...

Silver was $50 then now $41 (your still in the red lol)

Gold was $400 then now 1800 (about 450% return)

07Silverado
08-26-2011, 02:30 PM
One more question how is it that stocks are closing at monthly highs and gold is still going up? I though gold and stock had an inverse relationship?


Both are tracked against FRN's. Inflation lifts both stocks and gold to a point, but stocks over the long term will be a loser (IMO). Both gold and stocks are heavily manipulated, one being pushed down, while the other is levitated (guess which is which ;)). Everything is illusion, but the market in the end will prove more powerful than mens' deceptive games.

whtailslyr
08-26-2011, 02:32 PM
If you look ounce to ounce gold will alway look like it's better but if you look at percentage increases Silver runs over gold, If you had spent the same dollar amount on gold and silver who would be ahead?

Aug 2001.. one ounce gold....... $268.00
Aug 2001.. 63 ounces of Silver.. $263.50

Aug 2011.. One ounce Gold...... $1779.00
Aug 2011.. 63 ounces of Silver..$2594.34

In my eyes dollar to dollar silver has outrun gold by a good margin in the last 10 years

Killver
08-26-2011, 02:38 PM
Seems like recently gold goes up a good amount silver barely goes up. Gold goes down silver goes down a good amount. Will it be like this forever? If so I'm in the wrong metal :(

A lot of people say silver has two assets being a store of wealth/potential money, and secondly as an industrial metal. Shouldnt that mean silver goes up if economy booms and silver goes up if economy tanks?! Can someone explain why that doesn't happen?

Well, gold IS better because it's 40 times silver's value. But then you have to pay $1800+ to get it, so silver is the "poor man's gold" since not only is it cheaper, but it offers more upside potential BECAUSE of this imbalance. Silver's price is much more manipulated than gold's because it's a smaller market and maybe even because if you have a real SHTF situation and have to flee with no warning, silver isn't valuable enough to carry.

Buy silver and you'll have a rough ride, sometimes you'll be disgusted and want to swap for gold or even copper, but sometimes the upside will be stronger than gold- I believe we're going to get this because of the financial/fiscal/currency default going on in the US and other nations, silver and gold are becoming refuges for those wanting to preserve value of their currency. $75? $1i00? It doesn't matter since PMs reflect the dollar's drop, not the reverse. If PM prices are artificially dropped, as recently, watch how fast they return to understand that even forcing down PM prices won't work for long- it just gives us sale prices.

Silver IS money, even if not as valuable as gold. If the G/S ratio goes to 33:1 again, swap for gold. You'll get value out of either metal, but silver can give more... it's just less often. We don't know what a fair PM market price chart looks like yet...

SoWhatImInsane
08-26-2011, 02:43 PM
to me it seems that this is the way it works.

Silver outdoes gold in a bull market.

Gold does better than silver in a bear market.

Gold Standard
08-26-2011, 02:43 PM
Own both silver and gold. Worry less.

gene Daniel
08-26-2011, 02:45 PM
If I bought 1 oz of silver at 4 bucks 9 or 10 years ago it would be worth $41 now. One oz of gold at 300 about 10 years ago now 1800.

Do the math my friend:

$4 - $41 = up 1000%
$300 - $1800 = up 600%

Neither is bad, but which is better?

jjmtg
08-26-2011, 02:47 PM
TRAITOR!

Nah, just kidding, gold is great, but I like silver, always a chance to find some in my change. Wheel and deal with it. Love it. Sell it. Admire it.

That being said, the new 2012 Year of the Dragon Gold coins are simply sexy and hot. Perth mint for the win. Bought the silver since thats all I can afford but would love that gold piece.

captbilly
08-26-2011, 02:48 PM
Most of you are too young to remeber the $40 silver back in the late 70s when the Hunt bros. Manipulated the silver market (they went to jail for it by the way), but I was running a solar energy company at the time. Becuase of the high temperatures possible in our concentrating collectors we couldn't use ordinarty lead tin solder. Instead we used a high temperature silver solder that melted at about 650 C. As the price of silver rose from $7 to $40 we reached a point where the solder industry realized that they had to find a replacement for silver, and they did. We ended up using an alloy of copper and phosphorous (probably other metals as well) that actually worked better than the silver solder we had beem using (didn't need flux).

A couple of days ago I had a meeting with a furnace brazing company about a new product my company is designing. It so happened that we were there just as gold had peaked, and the topic of metal prices came up. The engineer at the furnace brazing company said that his price for fabricated gold (gold in a form useful to his business, rather then gold bullion) had gone over $2,000. He went on to say that at the present prices for silver and gold, he would have to switch to other metals for his brazing materials. He explained that there have long been replacements for both gold and silver in his industry but he would only switch to them if prices went too high. He also said that he was being told by his suppliers that they would be comming out with more gold and silver free materials in the future because the prices over the past year are simply unsustainable for brazing.

The point is that these oft vaunted industrial uses for silver will simply disappear if the price goes too high. Probably some "cost is no object" markets like existing military and medical products that have silver already specified, will continue to use silver, but few designers will specify silver or gold in new products. We saw the same thing happen with platinum, where there was a gradual increase in palladium and other materials used in catalytic converters as the price of platinum skyrocketed.

ToDaMoonBuffoon
08-26-2011, 02:49 PM
About gsr..if it gets down to 33:1 who is to say gold drops to make it that ratio. Why do we think silver will catch up to make it that ratio rather than gold falling down some and silver staying the same? Sorry for all the questions I'm an Econ major so I basically have a never ending stream of
Questions lol. :D

07Silverado
08-26-2011, 02:55 PM
About gsr..if it gets down to 33:1 who is to say gold drops to make it that ratio. Why do we think silver will catch up to make it that ratio rather than gold falling down some and silver staying the same? Sorry for all the questions I'm an Econ major so I basically have a never ending stream of
Questions lol. :D

This explains a lot. :p

precession
08-26-2011, 03:05 PM
Silver has more potential?

translated from german to english :

Amazingly. Historical Silver: among the ancient Greeks (500 BC) to about 1860 (from then on the dilution of almost pure EM currencies began with paper money) can show you that a base salary (farm workers or something similar) in silver from 2.5 to 5 grams a day was. Only in times of war, famine, or special situations (in EM-find areas such as South America, Spanish), etc. This differs significantly from the top or bottom. Often the Grundmünzeinheiten in silver were matched to the sum (equal to or slightly less than a day's wages)


Examples: - ancient Greek drachma 4.2 grams silver (in Athens one day craft wage)
- Antique full-fledged Roman denarius 4.5 grams silver ( Augustus at a legionary pay per day)
- Denar Charlemagne 1.7 grams silver (bad times with little EM)
- the penny in 1300 = 4 g of silver (as Gros tournois, Prague penny, Grosso Milanese so long time between 3 and 4 gr silver)
- in France under Louis XIII. XIV and the 5 Sou
- 2.3 grams silver coins (wage rural workers / day about 1610-1670)
- later in France the 10 Sou coins about 3 grams (1700-1720)
- the French franc 4.5 grams of fine silver (a farm worker earned in 1800 but also 1880 1 franc a day where the farm workers in 1800 had more of it)
- the English shillings from 16 5-6 gr-century silver
- the German Reich Mark 5 grams of fine silver So if in a functioning economy with EM about 4 grams silver = a basic daily wage is credited, probably broadly right. Only after the collapse, we will have no longer functioning EM system (as described above is probably the beginning of much too little to be in circulation), so that even some time vieliecht with basic daily wage of 1 g silver (or even less ) has to cope. As for the value of gold, this is probably somewhere in between 1:5 and 1:20 are more valuable than silver. People get used to you is to such wages. EM investors except with ample reserves.

http://www.vkblog.nl/bericht/352097/Historische_zilverwaarden.

Copperhead
08-26-2011, 03:09 PM
About gsr..if it gets down to 33:1 who is to say gold drops to make it that ratio. Why do we think silver will catch up to make it that ratio rather than gold falling down some and silver staying the same? Sorry for all the questions I'm an Econ major so I basically have a never ending stream of
Questions lol. :D

It could happen that way too. Increased industrial demand for silver as a possibility. At this point I would not bet that way but things change. You learn or are at least misinformed when you ask questions. :D

hippy
08-26-2011, 03:18 PM
Own both silver and gold. Worry less.

+1
This says it all.

coindog
08-26-2011, 03:46 PM
Own both silver and gold. Worry less.

that's all there is to it. :) double the fun.

Legio Patria Nostra
08-26-2011, 03:55 PM
If you look ounce to ounce gold will alway look like it's better but if you look at percentage increases Silver runs over gold, If you had spent the same dollar amount on gold and silver who would be ahead?

Aug 2001.. one ounce gold....... $268.00
Aug 2001.. 63 ounces of Silver.. $263.50

Aug 2011.. One ounce Gold...... $1779.00
Aug 2011.. 63 ounces of Silver..$2594.34

In my eyes dollar to dollar silver has outrun gold by a good margin in the last 10 years

I hold both ... Silver and Gold .... and I can tell you that if you count like that ....you're going bankrupt

Aug 2001 ...1 oz Gold ... $272 + premium ( for AGE $45 ) = $317
Aug 2001 ... 1 oz Silver ..$ 4.2 + premium ( for ASE $4 ) = 39 ounces for $317

Selling today .... 1 AGE = Spot +$20 = $1834 (at dealer )
.... 1 ASE = Spot + $1 = $42.20 x 39 = $1645 (at dealer )

I find it very bizar that smart people always somehow seem to forget that there are premiums involded !

Besides ... as a smart member already mentioned ... we're using currency to evaluate Gold , Silver , Platinum ... etc ... Not a good idea !

Sownman
08-26-2011, 04:16 PM
The biggest problem I see here is memory. I can easily recall when $40 silver and $1500 gold were kind of fantasy, kind of hope. We're above both and people whine about golds rapid drop from $1900 to $1750. Just how far BELOW $1500 has $1750 become ?? Jeez

"I wanna be rich and I want it by next Thursday" Doesn't work that way.

***Besides ... as a smart member already mentioned ... we're using currency to evaluate Gold , Silver , Platinum ... etc ... Not a good idea !****

Also very astute many if not most of us collect or stack or whatever because of lack of faith in FIAT currencies yet there's post after post about how much AU or AG is "worth" in these FIAT currencies you say you don't trust or want.

MoMoney
08-26-2011, 04:19 PM
Silver is the "gateway drug" for ... well, you know....;)

ifionlyhadsomegold
08-26-2011, 04:23 PM
i would say gold is being manipulated to look better for many reasons. you must be picking up the subliminal message being sent.


:(

whtailslyr
08-26-2011, 04:23 PM
True I didn't think of adding in any premiums, It may have not been as easy to buy at spot prices 10 years ago? I really have no idea because I was busy just being and wasn't buying or stacking anything <<<< Stupid me
What would the premiums happened to have been if you bought 10 oz bars or the like and not minted coins? Not trying to be an azz just educating myself. I was just noticing the big differnce in spot percentages over 10 years

ksilver
08-26-2011, 04:23 PM
Seems like recently gold goes up a good amount silver barely goes up. Gold goes down silver goes down a good amount. Will it be like this forever? If so I'm in the wrong metal :(

A lot of people say silver has two assets being a store of wealth/potential money, and secondly as an industrial metal. Shouldnt that mean silver goes up if economy booms and silver goes up if economy tanks?! Can someone explain why that doesn't happen?
Silver outperformed Gold for the past year, it's only in your head :)

http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/SIU1/tab/2
http://data.cnbc.com/quotes/GCZ1/tab/2

palehorse
08-26-2011, 04:30 PM
You really should just go chase gold.

Silver doesnt give a crap about Keeping up with the Jones, it does its own thing in its own time.

maybe you should consider that yourself.

Legio Patria Nostra
08-26-2011, 04:33 PM
True I didn't think of adding in any premiums, It may have not been as easy to buy at spot prices 10 years ago? I really have no idea because I was busy just being and wasn't buying or stacking anything <<<< Stupid me
What would the premiums happened to have been if you bought 10 oz bars or the like and not minted coins? Not trying to be an azz just educating myself. I was just noticing the big differnce in spot percentages over 10 years

Well since I compared AGE with ASE .... the comparison for bars will stay about the same
Premium is less when you buy ( at dealer ) but is also negative when you sell (at dealer ) ....so the average is about the same
I think the trick is to buy and sell private whenever possible .... ( that excludes the "bay" ) since trading private mostly means buying somewhere between spot and premium asked by dealer .... same goes for selling !

EspressoGuy
08-26-2011, 04:35 PM
If I bought 1 oz of silver at 4 bucks 9 or 10 years ago it would be worth $41 now. One oz of gold at 300 about 10 years ago now 1800.

Your math is wrong.

(snip) - duh, should have read the whole thread first - many also corrected the math....

Jess Douitt
08-26-2011, 05:06 PM
I've never paid a premium for any stacking silver (vs. numismatic silver or jewelry silver) that I have. So, you do not necessarily have to factor into the math the premiums. (Well, I did pay a $1 over spot for a stacking Morgan a couple of weeks ago, but then I later bought another one from the same person for $1 under, so I guess it evened out.) It is silly to think that everybody would only be buying and stacking ASE's and AGE's, and paying those premiums.

I think what the math that includes the premiums proves is that the premium itself can burn you!

Legio Patria Nostra
08-26-2011, 05:14 PM
I've never paid a premium for any stacking silver (vs. numismatic silver or jewelry silver) that I have. So, you do not necessarily have to factor into the math the premiums. (Well, I did pay a $1 over spot for a stacking Morgan a couple of weeks ago, but then I later bought another one from the same person for $1 under, so I guess it evened out.) It is silly to think that everybody is only buying and stacking ASE's and AGE's.

That's true ... however ...you should compare apples with apples ....
Nobody mentioned Junk-silver ... which by the way if you buy at a dealer you pay well over melt-value and if you resell ...you get 90% of melt at best !
So even if you buy that stuff private ... and you should sell at a dealer ...you're loosing even more than ASE's !!
Never mind Jewelry-Silver ,,,, You're going to loose your pants if you need to sell within days !

Jess Douitt
08-26-2011, 05:22 PM
That's true ... however ...you should compare apples with apples ....
Nobody mentioned Junk-silver ... which by the way if you buy at a dealer you pay well over melt-value and if you resell ...you get 90% of melt at best !
So even if you buy that stuff private ... and you should sell at a dealer ...you're loosing even more than ASE's !!
Never mind Jewelry-Silver ,,,, You're going to loose your pants if you need to sell within days !

But, nobody mentioned ANY specific kind of silver/gold...just the melt value...you went to ASE and AGE with their premiums. Junk silver is closer to being an apples-to-apples with the spot price. [Gold, I don't know about...I don't buy gold...there must be gold in some form that is a better comparison to spot than AGE's and "brand name" bars.] I can buy junk silver for melt or below at a dealer at any time. I can easily resell for melt on Craigslist.

Jewelry is not for quick sale. It is sold for the jewelry design value, and is usually worth considerably more than melt, but you have to wait for the buyer who likes the design.

At any rate, inclusion of a premium in the math is a useful comparison (particularly for those who pay premiums), but not necessary for the basic premise and for a correct conclusion.

spiritfilled111
08-26-2011, 09:53 PM
you make a buttload more off silver if you know how to work the crazy swings like riding a drunken and wild horse

gold is for lazy grannies, the slow way to the top.:D silver is like the roadrunner, and gold is the coyotey always chasing him

silver will fatten your wallet like a swine gold is like CALF TO HTE SLAUGHTER!:eek: