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LakotaMoon
09-27-2011, 01:24 PM
Seeking info/data on travel experiences carrying PMs. Other than the $10k limitations (travel with $9,990 value) what has anyone found to be difficulties or anomalies. Thanks!

LakotaMoon

mmthomas2001
09-27-2011, 01:34 PM
I have not had any problems traveling. They don't even ask. It might be on the Customs form you fill out when re-entering USA.

I think you are talking about exiting the USA with cash - no problem there. A Swiss bank might report you if you deposit more than $10K in cash.

Lets see - I could take 199 AMEs or Buffaloes with a face value of $50 each to keep it less than $10K..

fledgling
09-27-2011, 01:46 PM
Keep your eye on your carry on while they grope you
they have been stealing a lot

quitsurfing
09-27-2011, 02:38 PM
These a-holes at the airport are too stupid. You don't need to lie, they wont ask you. They want cash,drugs,fruit,meat and all your liquids. Other than that they just like to intimidate you and make you feel as insecure as possible. You are doing nothing wrong so act like it, if they give you sh-t give it right back. I just went through it, don't let them intimidate you.

cpr_metro
09-27-2011, 04:50 PM
If you are leaving the usa with over $2500 US Census requires you file with their AES system. Its basically an export declaration like the old SED. US Customs is NOT involved and the TSA guys dont care about your gold either, BUT if you leave with a few 400 oz bars in your back pack who knows. TSA guys only care about security theats, so as long as your gold is not in the form of a knife or a scissor dont worry.

When you file via AES and you will be issued an ITN #. If you get hassled the ITN# is your ticket out.

cpr_metro
09-27-2011, 04:54 PM
The $2500 is value not face value of the coins or bars and applies to both coins and bars.

You should also take into account the filings regarding the legal tender value if they are coins and file the FinCen form as well. Our govt working hard to protect us and simply our life.

ConanTheLibertarian
09-27-2011, 04:59 PM
Seeking info/data on travel experiences carrying PMs. Other than the $10k limitations (travel with $9,990 value) what has anyone found to be difficulties or anomalies. Thanks!

LakotaMoon

I'm in business, I travel.
There is no cash limit regarding US Customs.
Amounts over $10,000 require reporting - but you can legally tote millions if you want to.

These guys would have been legal if they reported their bonds to US Customs. :)



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6507161.ece

clawfull
09-27-2011, 05:04 PM
If you were more specific with likely destination(s) you may find members here with important info you need before traveling, just a thought.

sgtp79
09-27-2011, 11:12 PM
FYI, when passing customs into USA and declaring I have bullion worth more than 10k, the guy just waved me thru. The only worry I had during my trip was that my carryon was over the 7kg weight limit for the airline, when leaving my destination to USA. I proved my ownership of the bullion and they waved me thru.

mmthomas2001
09-27-2011, 11:59 PM
If you are leaving the usa with over $2500 US Census requires you file with their AES system. Its basically an export declaration like the old SED. US Customs is NOT involved and the TSA guys dont care about your gold either, BUT if you leave with a few 400 oz bars in your back pack who knows. TSA guys only care about security theats, so as long as your gold is not in the form of a knife or a scissor dont worry.

When you file via AES and you will be issued an ITN #. If you get hassled the ITN# is your ticket out.

I never heard of this before. I travel a lot internationally, and this has never been an issue. I will read up on it some more. But from what I saw tonight, this does not apply.

mmthomas2001
09-28-2011, 02:05 AM
I have not had any problems traveling. They don't even ask. It might be on the Customs form you fill out when re-entering USA.

I think you are talking about exiting the USA with cash - no problem there. A Swiss bank might report you if you deposit more than $10K in cash.

Lets see - I could take 199 AMEs or Buffaloes with a face value of $50 each to keep it less than $10K..

I looked up the answers as follows at the US Customs website.

"Customs and Border Protection (CBP) does not collect duty on currency. However, travelers leaving or entering the U.S. are required to report negotiable monetary instruments (i.e. currency or endorsed checks) valued at $10,000 or more on a "Report of International Transportation of Currency or Monetary Instruments" form FinCEN 105"
"The requirement to import currency on a FinCEN 105 does not apply to imports of gold bullion."

see:
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/447/kw/more%20than%20%2410000%20cash

FinCEN 105 can be found here:
http://www.fincen.gov/forms/files/fin105_cmir.pdf

"There is no duty on gold coins, medals or bullion but these items must be declared to a Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Officer. Please note that gold coins valued over $10,000 must be reported on the FinCEN 105 form." see:
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/322/kw/import%20gold

I have never carried that much cash with me in the past, but I can't remember ever being offered the form to fill out. If you plan on carrying that much cash, download the form before you go and turn it in at either - the airport counter (because there is no customs officer typically) when departing, or customs when entering.

LakotaMoon
09-28-2011, 12:07 PM
The data posted by mmthomas2001 is great. Thanks for all the comments. Where traveling to is probably a good point but don't care to post that intel on a public forum.

LakotaMoon

TimAnglim
09-28-2011, 02:44 PM
Hi,
This summer I traveled from the U.S to Europe with 290 troy ounces of gold in my carry on. After reading about some customs seizures of gold bullion at GWB Airport in Houston I decided to do a little homework. First I visited the local Customs office at my local airport and simply asked a supervisor. I was told that anyone traveling outside of the United States carrying more than $2500 worth (actual, not face value) of any commodity, including gold bullion, must file online with AESDirect. This was the reason for the problems in Houston, so I ant home and looked it up. It is a customs form, but the information is collected by the U.S. Census Bureau. It is mandatory. First you have to take a test to become registered, and then you fill out the form. About an hour later you will get a AES ITN number that is also available to Customs. Customs officers are often around the gate area for international flights, and you may or may not get checked. If you do, they simply look up Shipment Reference Number and check for an AES ITN number and you are on your way. If you have not filed, they will take your gold. You may get some or all of it back later, but it takes time and a lawyer. Another possibility is that the TSA will call Customs when they see the gold. Again, they will just check that you filed the form.
When traveling you should carry a Shipper's Bill of Lading. Instructions for this document are on the AESDirect website. Personally, I also chose to prepare and invoice and I attached copies of my purchase receipts. I was not asked for this when leaving the U.S., but I was asked for it in Europe. Having your paperwork in order and being calm definitely helps with the TSA. On the advice of the Customs supervisor i immediately asked for a private screening whenever I was screened. I had no problems and the only time the gold was out of my sight was in the machine. They did ask why when I asked and I just leaned over and whispered gold bullion. With that they were very happy to allow me to keep an eye on my carry on. In one airport they never even looked at it, and two other screenings only involved a cursory glance at both the gold and the paperwork.
It is very important that you check the laws in any country that you will be going to. In my case it was the E.U., so I simply had to present declaration that you can find online. There is no duty or VAT for "monitory gold" which is the term that they use for gold bullion coins and bars. The declaration form must be presented at your first point of entry into the E.U. If the actual (not face) value of the gold you are carrying is less than 10,000 Euros you do not need to fill this out and present it to customs. My first point of entry was Amsterdam, and they were polite, but they asked a lot of questions. This is where the receipts really came in handy. I almost missed my connecting flight while they waited for a supervisor, but in the end they escorted me to my gate and I made the connection. I was stopped once more in customs at my final destination, but this simply involved a few questions and a phone call. Remember, it is very important to check the laws in the countries that you are going to. They are all different, and some countries do not allow the importation of gold bullion, while others restrict exportation.
Lastly, if the actual value of the bullion that you are carrying is U.S. $10,000 or more you must complete a FinCen Form 105 with the Customs office at your point of departure from the U.S. You can download this from the IRS website along with the instructions. In my case, they simply made a copy and stamped it for me. They never asked to se the gold.
Please remember that it is always the actual value of your bullion, not the face value that is required on all Customs and IRS forms. The face value thing is a myth, and it could cost you your gold. As an aside, you are unlikely to be stopped and questioned for carrying eight or nine gold coins. Both my wife and I routinely travel with four or five that are just mixed in with other coins. Still, you asked what the rules are, so here they are. Because I was pretty sure that carrying 290 ounces would subject me to considerable scrutiny, I chose to learn and follow the rules very carefully. All of this information is available on line, so DYODD. Hopefully this will save you some time by pointing you in the right direction. All in all, my experience was pretty uneventful.
Best of luck,
Tim

cpr_metro
09-29-2011, 12:15 AM
Thanks for confirming what I said TIM

But I do have a few comments

1) When you register with AESDirect, you must fill out these forms as a COMPANY with a TAX ID #. They no longer allow you to file as an individual with a SSN. If you don't have a company or a friend who does, then use a company like VIAMAT to ship your PM's.

2) I do NOT agree with your comment that its the actual bullion value ( not face value / legal tender ) that is used to determine if a FinCEN Form 105 needs to be filled out or not. Gold in Bar form is not considered a monetary instrument, its a commodity, and is not reportable on this form. If it is in coin form with a legal tender value on it it is reportable.

TimAnglim
09-29-2011, 09:31 AM
Hi,
Here are my answers to the questions that you have raised:
1) I filed for a tax ID number using my own name as the company name and received it instantly from the IRS. This is allowable as a sole proprietor for this purpose according to the IRS. It was very simple.

2) I believe that you are correct about bar gold being exempt from FinCen 105 reporting. At least that is what it says on their on line flyer. However, in another section I read that all gold bullion must be reported. I asked the Customs supervisor about this and he said to go ahead and file one. He said that when Customs gets paperwork that is not required they simply dispose of it. I needed to file one because part of my bullion was coin and I chose to include the weight of the bar gold. I can prove that I bought it legally, so I saw no harm in listing the total amount of gold that I was carrying on the FinDen 105. I figured why take the chance. I didn't want to become a test case for how laws are interpreted. I do a lot of work with the BATF&E and I have seen many case where the ATF has put out flyers that contradict their own rules. Courts have ruled that the law trumps the flyer. Again, it was a personal choice to list all of my bullion because I had nothing to fear and a lot to lose.
As for face value vs. actual value, it is absolutely the actual value of the metal. If you choose to claim that a AGE is only worth $50, good luck. The law is clear. Incidentally, on the Customs form they want what you paid for your bullion, not what is worth that day. The FinCen and the E.U. forms want the actual value when you leave/arrive.
Tim

HighInBC
09-29-2011, 09:49 AM
I always travel with at least one sovereign, which works as money anywhere I go. Often I carry 5 or so of them.

I just have a little bag containing various spare change with the sovereigns mixed in. It is under the limit so I don't need to declare it and on the scanners all of the coins look the same.

Bruce7Trader
09-29-2011, 09:56 AM
I always travel with at least one sovereign, which works as money anywhere I go. Often I carry 5 or so of them.

I just have a little bag containing various spare change with the sovereigns mixed in. It is under the limit so I don't need to declare it and on the scanners all of the coins look the same.

THis is a great idea you have for Canadians especially to travel to the south have some gold on hand as many of them are down south for 4 to 6 months. THey can't stay past 6 months due to health benefits and pensions. I will buy some for this very reason to have some on hand and no fear of crossing south as this is fully legal.

B7T:cool:

cpr_metro
09-29-2011, 10:25 AM
yes I agree with the " if in doubt, report it" philosphy

What section of the customs regs say that all bullion exports must be reported on a FINCEN 105 ?

Hmmmmm Intersting about the TAX ID #.
I was told that doing this can put you under special scrutiny as you have no DUNS history.

TimAnglim
09-29-2011, 11:08 AM
Hi again,
I honestly cannot remember where I found the contradiction. However, I believe that the controlling document would be the instructions and definitions on the back of the FinCen 105 itself. The definitions for "currency" and for "monitory instrument" list three "tests" to determine what is reportable. I believe that is clear after re-reading it that government issued coins worth U.S. $10,000 or more are reportable, and bar gold in any amount is not. Just pull up a FinCen 105 and read the definitions. I think that they are pretty clear, and since the FinCen 105 is an IRS form not a Customs form, I would go with their definitions.
If you go to the IRS website to file for a tax I.D. number (EIN) you can select the option "sole proprietor or individual". I selected this option and got a number in seconds. Anyone can legally get an EIN, and AESDirect just needs the number to navigate their system. It is perfectly legal to operate as your own customs broker as long as you sign up with AESDirect and follow their reporting instructions. In fact, it is the only way to export a commodity worth U.S. $2500 or more without using a customs broker or other shipping company who will just fill out the form in their name with you listed as the "Ultimate Consignee".
Tim

cpr_metro
09-29-2011, 11:48 AM
yes, I have gone through the exact same thing you have, and used AES myself, but with my company name. I was told also that not having an established TAX ID # that has a D&B history can hold up the AES registration process and lead to increased scrutiny. Obviously that was not the case with you.

I did have a BIG issue entering bullion coins into AES.
I had an issue with the weight and measures. Nothing I did
worked and I got error messages all the time, so I only exported
my bars that I could enter properly. As you know there is a different
commodity code for each of these.... I think the one for monetary coins
is not set up properly in their system.

avalon
09-29-2011, 03:22 PM
I'm trying to clarify:

You use AES Direct because you export gold bar? Because I thought that if it's gold coin, FINCEN105 is sufficient.

I can confirm that the amount you should reported in FINCEN105 is the real value of gold. So for example you bought 7 AGE at $1800, then you need to report it for $12600.

I read an article yesterday, it says that it's not illegal to bring out money outside US for more than $10K as long as you report it by filing out form FINCEN105. (There was this story of couple brought $100K worth of money without reporting it and they confiscate it in Chicago, etc etc...). You know they just want to make sure that it's not illegal activity and stuff like that.

lubbad
09-29-2011, 03:30 PM
I'm trying to clarify:

You use AES Direct because you export gold bar? Because I thought that if it's gold coin, FINCEN105 is sufficient.

I can confirm that the amount you should reported in FINCEN105 is the real value of gold. So for example you bought 7 AGE at $1800, then you need to report it for $12600.

I read an article yesterday, it says that it's not illegal to bring out money outside US for more than $10K as long as you report it by filing out form FINCEN105. (There was this story of couple brought $100K worth of money without reporting it and they confiscate it in Chicago, etc etc...). You know they just want to make sure that it's not illegal activity and stuff like that.

I have some Arabic cousins who traveled to the middle east wih more than 50k in U.S. fiat. They were building a house in Amman Jordan and that was why the large amount of fiat.

They put money belts on several of their children (not all...some were two young) and as they went through customs, officers approached only the children with the money belts. They knew at once who was holding the money. The money was confiscated.

The short story is that my cousins were able to get a little more than 1/2 of their money back, but only after lawyers and forfeitures. They could have just reported the money before traveling-but they were fearful that Arabs traveling with that much cash would profile them as supporting some terrorist organization.

TimAnglim
09-29-2011, 04:22 PM
Hi again,
Here are some more answers and some more information based upon my personal experience only. Results may very!

!) Gold is considered a commodity for U. S. Customs purposes. Any Commodity with a value of U.S.$2500 must be reported to Customs who will forward the information to the U.S. Cencus Bureau. The only way that I know to do that is the the AESDirect web site.

2) Gold coins are considered a "monitory instrument" for IRS purposes (Except when you sell them as a long term capital gain, in which case they magically become "collectables" and are taxed at 28%. Go figure.), so that is why a FinCen 105 is required if the value of your bullion is U.S $10,000 or more.

3) When using AESDirect, use the schedule B code for gold which is 700812010, and then list the total weight in grams (you do not have to break out any base metals like the ones in AGEs and Krugerands, just use the total weight), and again in whole kilos on the bottom. I actually made a mistake on this and got an approval with an AES ITN along with a request to correct the information. They are constantly updating the system, so if you have had problems in the past, you might have better luck today. My last experience using AESDirect was in June, 2011.

4)You might get buy with no Customs approval number ninety-nine out of one- hundred times, but get caught once and they will take your gold. I was told that you will most likely get all or most of it back for a customs violation if you can prove where you got it and how you paid for it. You will need a lawyer and it will take time. The same is true for the FinCen 105, only you will not be getting your gold back.
It is a well known that IRS (and BATF) agents are trained to "always think forfeiture." In fact, the ATF Forfeiture Devision actually put out a public bid recently for a bunch of blue Leatherman knives/tools that here blue and gold with the devision's name on one side and that very saying on the other. They were meant as gifts. I will not post on line what I think of that. It is always difficult and expensive to regain possession of property that has been seized.

5) Before you decide wether or not to bother with the on line Customs form, please do a search on gold seizures at George W. Bush International Airport in Houston. The seizures were all done by Customs and Boarder Patrol Agents specifically because several people who boarding different flights on different dates had not filed the commodities export form. They were each unrelated seizures. It is up to you how dangerously you want to live. I was told that, for a small amount, they may actually help you, but for a large amount they WILL take your gold if you have not declared it as a commodity, and in the case of coins, as a monitory asset on a FinCen 105. All of this information is available on line, although it does take some digging. If you travel a lot on international flights, you will know that it is not uncommon to see C&BP Agents at the gate selecting a few people for searches and questions. Also, someone posted earlier that TSA has no interest in any of this. That is incorrect. They can and will call either the police or the C&BP if they have any suspicions whatsoever. Will it always happen? No. Can it happen? Absolutely. I always believe that everyone should DYODD. However, I chose to post this information because I did exactly what I have described in my posts and successfully walked out of the U.S. and into the E.U. with 290 troy ounces of gold this past summer. That, and I have read a lot of potentially dangerous misinformation on line, including on this site.
Sincerely,
Tim

avalon
09-29-2011, 04:33 PM
I was told that, for a small amount, they may actually help you, but for a large amount they WILL take your gold if you have not declared it as a commodity, and in the case of coins, as a monitory asset on a FinCen 105.

Sorry, but I still don't understand. are you saying that gold coins = commodity? or gold bar = commodity? Or both gold bar & coin = commodity?

TimAnglim
09-29-2011, 06:20 PM
Hi,
All gold bullion, either in bar or coin form, is considered a commodity for customs purposes, just as would be copper or corn. The key difference that I was trying to point out was that U.S. Customs requires reporting of any commodity with a value at or above $2,500, and the IRS requires a FinCen 105 for any monitory instrument with a value at or above $10,000.

Different folks, different rules. Customs collects the commodity information for the Census Bureau, and the tax information for the IRS through the FinCen 105.

To make it simple, any time you export ant commodity (gold bars, gold coins, etc.) outside the U.S. with a value of $2,500 or more you are required to report it to U.S.Customs.

Any time you export gold bullion coins that have been issued by any country's government that also has a value of $10,000 or more out of the U.S., you must file an IRS FinCen 105 with Customs, just as you would do with cash.

They are two different things, but many do not know about the Customs/Census/AESDirect side of things. Again, I would urge you to look up the well documented cases from GWB Int. Airport.

I hope that this helps.
Tim

cpr_metro
09-29-2011, 08:13 PM
The instructions on the FinCEN 105 are vague and there is alot of debate in other forums as to whether the $10000 limit is based upon the legal tender value of the coin or the spot price value of the gold. The IRS is talking about "monetary" instruments which in my mind implies the legal tender value on the front of the instrument. The gov't stance is that Gold is NOT money, so why would they consider the value of the gold in the coin? A 1 ounce gold coin is not a monetary instrument ( LEGAL TENDER) whose value that fluctuates with the spot price of Gold.

By the same token, if you have a huge stack of $50 Gold certificates from 1916, they have a value far in excess of the $50 printed on the front, but for the FinCEN 105 I think its safe to say that you would list the total of the legal tender values of all the bills.